GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions) | Page 1588

Krypto98 · Apr 10, 2025

generalcanada said:
While current locos have a top speed of 100kph. dont the electric trains intend to go 140kph? i remember reading that in the 2022 onexpress announcement. that on top of the extra acceleration from electric locos

Current locomotives have a top speed of 93 mph or 149 km/hr

Bojaxs · Apr 10, 2025

Sauga89 said:
I think the gist of the issue @Bojaxs asked about is that today the maximum speed limit is 40 miles per hour, or about 64 km per hour, not counting stops. In good traffic, I imagine you could probably drive faster than that. But if I understand what is being said here, the grade separations planned will bring that up to 50 or 60 miles per hour, or 80 to 100 km per hour? I wouldn't be disappointed by that. It sounds like you'd only need more than that if you wanted express trains.

Yeah, I wouldn't complain if the trains on the Stouffville line were hitting 80-100km/h. But when I rode it yesterday it certainly wasn't going anywhere near those speeds.

bearcat · Apr 10, 2025

Northern Light said:
Important to remember here when @crs1026 says '60'...he's meaning Mile per Hour, or 100km/ph.

Within an urbanized area, and with distances generally at or below 4km between stops, its asking alot to get to a faster speed only to slow down again almost immediately.

If you search @reaperexpress 's posts, I'm sure he's got the acceleration rate for the trains somewhere, but regardless.....it takes time to get the train up to 60mph. Its a big beast.

At 100km/ph, you could cover 4km in 2 minutes 24s.

You're obviously not going to be at that speed the whole time. So let's just say, for argument's sake that you could hit 'peak speed' for the middle 2km.

That's 1m 12s at 100km/ph

At 80mph/120km/ph that's 1 minute.

So its only a savings of 12 seconds.

My at-speed math is solid, but as I noted, I don't know the exact curves on acceleration/braking.

But whether its such that you could shave as little as 8 seconds or as much as 20s its not a terribly exciting number over that distance.

I grant, its cumulative.......but still we're talking 2 minutes 'ish across most of the line?

Thanks again for your thorough answer as usual.

I understand it is in miles per hour, and 60 mph is almost 100 km/h.

And I understand with the current planned service pattern and station spacing, it doesn't make a huge difference like you point out to go from 60 to 80 let's say.

I agree 60 mph as a top regular operating speed for the currently planned service is more than enough. I don't think 40 is.

However, I think there might be some value in providing for a higher operating speed in case there's future express service, or even for situations where a train is running behind, and in that setting a few seconds make a difference in terms of keeping on schedule. Or if there is ever service with shorter, lighter and more quickly accelerating EMU's, but perhaps I am overestimating how much of a difference that would make.

Ultimately it sounds like with current track geometry 60 is close to the limit, so the expense is not worth it to go higher.

I really do hope we get the 60 when the grade separations are complete.

reinventingthewheel · Apr 10, 2025

bearcat said:
Or if there is ever service with shorter, lighter and more quickly accelerating EMU's, but perhaps I am overestimating how much of a difference that would make.

Consider this approximation for some perspective:

1. Assume EMUs perform like a Toronto Rocket (accel 0.9m/s2, decel 1.35m/s2)
2. Assume straight track with no impediments to speed

The following shows travel times at approximate speeds (40mph, 60mph, 80mph), covering approximate station distances:
Kennedy - Agincourt = ~ 4km,
Agincourt - Miliken = ~ 6km,
Miliken - Unionville = ~ 4km
Kennedy - Unionville = ~14km (hypothetical express)

Code:

Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t
----------------------------------------
d:  4000m, v:  65km/h, t =  3:58
d:  4000m, v:  95km/h, t =  2:56
d:  4000m, v: 130km/h, t =  2:24
----------------------------------------
d:  6000m, v:  65km/h, t =  5:49
d:  6000m, v:  95km/h, t =  4:11
d:  6000m, v: 130km/h, t =  3:19
----------------------------------------
d: 14000m, v:  65km/h, t = 13:12
d: 14000m, v:  95km/h, t =  9:14
d: 14000m, v: 130km/h, t =  7:01

So 40mph max (~65kmh) between Unionville and Kennedy (with all stops) takes ~14 minutes, at 60mph (~95kmh) that's reduced to ~10 minutes.
Once you add in dwell time you're looking at more like 17 minutes down to 13, making the time saving relatively more trivial.
Remember, this is with subway levels of acceleration. GO train locos lug full trains somewhere shy of 0.4m/s2, less than half what I've used in this scenario.

Feel free to plug in new values and run this on your own

Python:

# train travel times based on distance, top speed, accel and decel:
dists = [4000, 6000, 14000]      # m
v_kmh = [65, 95, 130]            # km/h
v_ms  = [v / 3.6 for v in v_kmh] # m/s
accel = 0.9                      # m/s^2
decel = 1.35                     # m/s^2

print("Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t")

for d in dists:
  print("-" * 40)
  for v_max in v_ms:
    # ramp up and ramp down time (seconds)
    ramp_up_t = v_max / accel
    ramp_dn_t = v_max / decel

    # ramp up and ramp down distance (metres)
    ramp_up_d = v_max * ramp_up_t / 2
    ramp_dn_d = v_max * ramp_dn_t / 2  
   
    # distance at max speed (metres)
    v_max_d = d - ramp_up_d - ramp_dn_d
   
    # time at max speed (seconds)
    v_max_t = v_max_d / v_max
   
    # elapsed time
    t = ramp_up_t + v_max_t + ramp_dn_t

    # split minutes and seconds
    t_m, t_s = divmod(t, 60)

    print("d: {:5d}m, v: {:3d}km/h, t = {:2d}:{:02d} " \
                .format(d, int(v_max * 3.6), int(t_m), int(t_s)))

Northern Light · Apr 10, 2025

reinventingthewheel said:
Consider this approximation for some perspective:

1. Assume EMUs perform like a Toronto Rocket (accel 0.9m/s2, decel 1.35m/s2)
2. Assume straight track with no impediments to speed

The following shows travel times at approximate speeds (40mph, 60mph, 80mph), covering approximate station distances:
Kennedy - Agincourt = ~ 4km,
Agincourt - Miliken = ~ 6km,
Miliken - Unionville = ~ 4km
Kennedy - Unionville = ~14km (hypothetical express)

Code:

Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t ---------------------------------------- d: 4000m, v: 65km/h, t = 3:58 d: 4000m, v: 95km/h, t = 2:56 d: 4000m, v: 130km/h, t = 2:24 ---------------------------------------- d: 6000m, v: 65km/h, t = 5:49 d: 6000m, v: 95km/h, t = 4:11 d: 6000m, v: 130km/h, t = 3:19 ---------------------------------------- d: 14000m, v: 65km/h, t = 13:12 d: 14000m, v: 95km/h, t = 9:14 d: 14000m, v: 130km/h, t = 7:01

So 40mph max (~65kmh) between Unionville and Kennedy (with all stops) takes ~14 minutes, at 60mph (~95kmh) that's reduced to ~10 minutes.
Once you add in dwell time you're looking at more like 17 minutes down to 13, making the time saving relatively more trivial.
Remember, this is with subway levels of acceleration. GO train locos lug full trains somewhere shy of 0.4m/s2, less than half what I've used in this scenario.

Feel free to plug in new values and run this on your own

Python:

# train travel times based on distance, top speed, accel and decel: dists = [4000, 6000, 14000] # m v_kmh = [65, 95, 130] # km/h v_ms = [v / 3.6 for v in v_kmh] # m/s accel = 0.9 # m/s^2 decel = 1.35 # m/s^2 print("Trip distance = d, top speed = v, elapsed time = t") for d in dists: print("-" * 40) for v_max in v_ms: # ramp up and ramp down time (seconds) ramp_up_t = v_max / accel ramp_dn_t = v_max / decel # ramp up and ramp down distance (metres) ramp_up_d = v_max * ramp_up_t / 2 ramp_dn_d = v_max * ramp_dn_t / 2 # distance at max speed (metres) v_max_d = d - ramp_up_d - ramp_dn_d # time at max speed (seconds) v_max_t = v_max_d / v_max # elapsed time t = ramp_up_t + v_max_t + ramp_dn_t # split minutes and seconds t_m, t_s = divmod(t, 60) print("d: {:5d}m, v: {:3d}km/h, t = {:2d}:{:02d} " \ .format(d, int(v_max * 3.6), int(t_m), int(t_s)))

Agree with the above, but would note that a Finch station is funded//approved between Milliken and Agincourt.

bearcat · Apr 10, 2025

Northern Light said:
Agree with the above, but would note that a Finch station is funded//approved between Milliken and Agincourt.

Is there an update on the funding for it? Didn't the city plan to defer indefinitely last year unless they get money from the province? You sound optimistic it's actually getting built.

Northern Light · Apr 10, 2025

bearcat said:
Is there an update on the funding for it? Didn't the city plan to defer indefinitely last year unless they get money from the province? You sound optimistic it's actually getting built.

The City didn't defer anything.

It told the province that no more money would be forthcoming.

So far as I know, the province hasn't yet announced any reply to that publicly.

bearcat · Apr 10, 2025

Northern Light said:
The City didn't defer anything.

It told the province that no more money would be forthcoming.

So far as I know, the province hasn't yet announced any reply to that publicly.

Okay, I apologize maybe I am not using the correct wording/terminology or understanding the relationship between Metrolinx and the city here. But from what I understand unless then province or federal government provide more money this station is not getting built? Am I correct?

Northern Light · Apr 10, 2025

bearcat said:
Okay, I apologize maybe I am not using the correct wording/terminology or understanding the relationship between Metrolinx and the city here. But from what I understand unless then province or federal government provide more money this station is not getting built? Am I correct?

That's up to the province.

reaperexpress · Apr 10, 2025

generalcanada said:
While current locos have a top speed of 100kph. dont the electric trains intend to go 140kph? i remember reading that in the 2022 onexpress announcement. that on top of the extra acceleration from electric locos

Why did you think that the top speed is 100 km/h? I've seen many people say this and don't understand where it's coming from.

Metroscapes · Apr 10, 2025

reaperexpress said:
Why did you think that the top speed is 100 km/h? I've seen many people say this and don't understand where it's coming from.

I saw data from 2010 where GO trains were hitting low 90s (mph) between Milton and Lisgar. I don't know where it's coming from either.

Fritter · Apr 10, 2025

Back in the day with the old cab cars, I would ride in that car beside the cab and peak in watching the speedometer. I thought I witnessed it tickling 100 mph between Ajax and Whitby. The trains often paced or exceeded traffic on the nearby 401. (Assuming 110kph average speed on 401)

smallspy · Apr 10, 2025

Metroscapes said:
I saw data from 2010 where GO trains were hitting low 90s (mph) between Milton and Lisgar. I don't know where it's coming from either.

They absolutely were not. The maximum speed on the Galt Sub is 75mph. At 5mph above that number, the train is considered "out of control" and must have the emergency brake applied.

That said, there certainly are a number of locations on the system where trains are able to reach 90mph or more.

Fritter said:
Back in the day with the old cab cars, I would ride in that car beside the cab and peak in watching the speedometer. I thought I witnessed it tickling 100 mph between Ajax and Whitby. The trains often paced or exceeded traffic on the nearby 401. (Assuming 110kph average speed on 401)

100mph is not possible in any GO locomotives. At that speed there is a risk of the traction motors birds-nesting due to their rotational speeds.

Plus on the old cab cars, the speedometer is a small LCD display located on the left-hand panel in the cab, and not visible from outside. What you more likely saw was one of the air brake gauges - they are located in the centre of the dash, to the left of the throttle and reverse.

Dan

reaperexpress · Apr 10, 2025

Fritter said:
Back in the day with the old cab cars, I would ride in that car beside the cab and peak in watching the speedometer. I thought I witnessed it tickling 100 mph between Ajax and Whitby. The trains often paced or exceeded traffic on the nearby 401. (Assuming 110kph average speed on 401)

The speed limit on the GO sub (Pickering to Oshawa) is 85 mph (137 km/h) so you can outpace traffic but not at 100 mph. The adjacent CN Kingston Subdivision has a 95 mph (153 km/h) speed limit for Via's current trains.

smallspy said:
100mph is not possible in any GO locomotives. At that speed there is a risk of the traction motors birds-nesting due to their rotational speeds.

Trains are generally tested at 10% above the eventual service speed, which for the 93 mph MP40s would be 103 mph. So they will definitely not self destruct at 100 mph. But yes I've never seen any GO train exceed any speed limit. I've seen trains reach 92 mph many times, but I've never seen 93, let alone 94.

Metroscapes · Apr 10, 2025

smallspy said:
They absolutely were not. The maximum speed on the Galt Sub is 75mph. At 5mph above that number, the train is considered "out of control" and must have the emergency brake applied.

That said, there certainly are a number of locations on the system where trains are able to reach 90mph or more.

I must be misremembering the location then. Bound to happen after 15 years.

Krypto98

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Bojaxs

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bearcat

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reinventingthewheel

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Northern Light

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bearcat

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Northern Light

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bearcat

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Northern Light

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reaperexpress

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Metroscapes

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Fritter

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reaperexpress

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