[bearcat]

You are indeed accustomed to what has always been a heavy main line, rather than a sleepy branch line,

The Stouffville line is about the slowest on the system, zone speed from Scarborough to just north of Agincourt is only 40 mph - has not been higher in the last 20 years. North of that the zone speed is 50 mph. I have seen no indication that there is a plan to raise speeds when construction ends someday. As there is no express GO or VIA service on this line, you won’t see 60 mph + ever happening.

The sound walls are a good thing, but yes the charm of riding along and looking into all the backyards is gone. It's pretty close to riding on a subway these days. We have discussed how the walls might be softened and graffitti discouraged, but so far ML has not taken me up on my offer of cuttings from the indestructible ivy in my garden that I can't kill.

- Paul

The line appear pretty straight with few grade crossings. It will also have at least one direction of new rails as it's getting double tracked. What exactly is preventing higher speeds?

Does it cost that much extra to make the line capable of higher speeds?

 

[Allandale25]

From the news release about West Harbour's track competition:

"The Lakeshore West schedule will be adjusted in the coming weeks, once testing of the new track is complete."

Edit: a BlueSky post by Joey Coleman, a reporter:

"In response to my question when the new schedules will begin, Metrolinx says the switch activation is ahead of schedule, therefore timelines moved up. New schedules "within a few weeks""

Complete news release:

NEWS RELEASE Ontario Completes Construction on West Harbour GO Station​ Station upgrades will save riders 15 minutes per roundtrip, with more GO options between Toronto, Hamilton and Niagara April 09, 2025 Ministry of Transportation

HAMILTON — As part of its plan to deliver faster and more reliable GO service across the Greater Golden Horseshoe, the Ontario government has completed construction at West Harbour GO Station, including a recent upgrade that will save more than 250,000 commuters in Niagara Falls and St. Catharines roughly 15 minutes per roundtrip. “As we work to expand GO Service across the region, the completion of West Harbour Station means faster, more convenient and more frequent GO train options with four times as many trips for commuters travelling between Hamilton and Niagara Falls,” said Prabmeet Sarkaria, Minister of Transportation. “Our government is making historic investments to expand transit and build for the future, while creating good paying jobs that protect Ontario workers during this time of economic uncertainty.” West Harbour GO Station previously had a dead-end track that required trains to back into and out of the station. With the station now connected to the main Lakeshore West rail line, St. Catharines and Niagara Falls customers can expect faster service in and out of West Harbour GO. In addition, all trains travelling to and from Niagara Falls, including weekend and off-peak trips, will now stop at West Harbour GO Station, significantly improving convenience and travel options between the Niagara Region and Hamilton. The completed work on the West Harbour track will also facilitate GO rail service to the future Confederation GO Station in east Hamilton, further connecting GO rail to bus services and Hamilton Street Railway services and making life more convenient for commuters in Hamilton and for those travelling to Niagara Falls. The Lakeshore West schedule will be adjusted in the coming weeks, once testing of the new track is complete.

Quick Facts​ The GO Transit service area, which includes the Greater Toronto Hamilton Area, Kitchener-Waterloo, Barrie and Niagara, is expected to grow to 15 million people by 2051. The Lakeshore West Line connects Exhibition Place in Toronto to Niagara Falls, one of Canada’s top tourist destinations. Beginning later this spring, every Niagara- and Toronto-bound train will stop at West Harbour GO, seven days a week. In 2024, Ontario announced the largest GO Transit service expansion in more than a decade, adding more than 300 weekly train trips to the GO rail network.

 

[Bojaxs]

The Stouffville line is about the slowest on the system, zone speed from Scarborough to just north of Agincourt is only 40 mph - has not been higher in the last 20 years. North of that the zone speed is 50 mph. I have seen no indication that there is a plan to raise speeds when construction ends someday. As there is no express GO or VIA service on this line, you won’t see 60 mph + ever happening.

That is incredibly disappointing.

 

[smallspy]

The line appear pretty straight with few grade crossings. It will also have at least one direction of new rails as it's getting double tracked. What exactly is preventing higher speeds?

Does it cost that much extra to make the line capable of higher speeds?

The sheer number of grade crossings limits the maximum speed, although the impending removal of most of them over the next several years will help with that.

And despite appearances, the track geometry in many places will limit the maximum speeds capable. For instance, the curves at Lawrence are only capable of a maximum of 60 or 65mph due to the lack of tangent track between them. The curves at Sheppard will have a similar restriction, although that one is less important as it is immediately south of the platforms of Agincourt Station.

Dan

 

[bearcat]

The sheer number of grade crossings limits the maximum speed, although the impending removal of most of them over the next several years will help with that.

And despite appearances, the track geometry in many places will limit the maximum speeds capable. For instance, the curves at Lawrence are only capable of a maximum of 60 or 65mph due to the lack of tangent track between them. The curves at Sheppard will have a similar restriction, although that one is less important as it is immediately south of the platforms of Agincourt Station.

Dan

Thanks for the detailed response.

I guess I didn't realize how many grade crossings there are, but as you said they are being removed. And with current track geometry sounds like 65 mph might be possible as you said.

I guess I was more questioning why if there is so much work being done on the line, including double tracking and grade crossings removal, would the goal not be to this work in such a way with the goal of raising the speed to let's say 65?

I was just kind of shocked and upset by the statement from @crs1026 that "60 mph + will never happen" and even when "construction ends some day" there is no goal to raise the speed.

 

[Northern Light]

As per this CBC story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/go-train-service-1.7505758

West Harbour will see 32 additional train trips from GO call each week beginning in May.

This means all Niagara bound trains will stop at West Harbour, weekdays and weekends.

This does not appear to include any additional service to Niagara.

Which I think would be a mistake. They desperately need to add an additional trip each way, on weekends, for sure, if not daily.

 

[nfitz]

As per this CBC story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/go-train-service-1.7505758

West Harbour will see 32 additional trains trips from GO call each week beginning in May.

This means all Niagara bound trains will stop at West Harbour, weekdays and weekends.

This does not appear to include any additional service to Niagara.

Which I think would be a mistake. They desperately need to add an additional trip each way, on weekends, for sure, if not daily.

They said that it becomes "a regular stop for all trains headed to and from the Niagara region, said Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria. That means the north-end station will soon see 32 trips added to its schedule each week, about four more a day, on average."

This does not preclude any other schedule increases (or decreases I suppose).

 

[rdaner]

^So basically Hamilton now has a meaningful commuter rail line.

 

[crs1026]

The line appear pretty straight with few grade crossings. It will also have at least one direction of new rails as it's getting double tracked. What exactly is preventing higher speeds?

Does it cost that much extra to make the line capable of higher speeds?

I would welcome higher speed, but there isn't all that much to be gained timewise from going above about 60, just too short a distance between stops. Just a lot of extra fuel used.

- Paul

 

[bearcat]

I would welcome higher speed, but there isn't all that much to be gained timewise from going above about 60, just too short a distance between stops. Just a lot of extra fuel used.

- Paul

Even with faster acceleration with electrification? Is electricity usage as much of a concern as diesel in terms of "extra fuel used"?

 

[ownthesky]

As per this CBC story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/go-train-service-1.7505758

West Harbour will see 32 additional trains trips from GO call each week beginning in May.

This means all Niagara bound trains will stop at West Harbour, weekdays and weekends.

This does not appear to include any additional service to Niagara.

Which I think would be a mistake. They desperately need to add an additional trip each way, on weekends, for sure, if not daily.

A "weekly" 32 train service increase is such a bizarre way to describe this to the general public by the CBC. Are we trying to move as many people to and from Toronto on a weekly quota like crates of oranges?

I'd like Hamilton to start implementing transit changes sooner than later to face the reality that West Harbour is their regional transit stop, not Hamilton Centre. Currently, the city's plan is to modify the HSR bus system with the LRT, but that will be many years away. There should be more one-seat rides capable of reaching West Harbour ASAP, because otherwise there's really no incentive to bring back 30 minute service to West Harbour.

 

[Northern Light]

Even with faster acceleration with electrification? Is electricity usage as much of a concern as diesel in terms of "extra fuel used"?

Important to remember here when @crs1026 says '60'...he's meaning Mile per Hour, or 100km/ph.

Within an urbanized area, and with distances generally at or below 4km between stops, its asking alot to get to a faster speed only to slow down again almost immediately.

If you search @reaperexpress 's posts, I'm sure he's got the acceleration rate for the trains somewhere, but regardless.....it takes time to get the train up to 60mph. Its a big beast.

At 100km/ph, you could cover 4km in 2 minutes 24s.

You're obviously not going to be at that speed the whole time. So let's just say, for argument's sake that you could hit 'peak speed' for the middle 2km.

That's 1m 12s at 100km/ph

At 80mph/120km/ph that's 1 minute.

So its only a savings of 12 seconds.

My at-speed math is solid, but as I noted, I don't know the exact curves on acceleration/braking.

But whether its such that you could shave as little as 8 seconds or as much as 20s its not a terribly exciting number over that distance.

I grant, its cumulative.......but still we're talking 2 minutes 'ish across most of the line?

 

[crs1026]

@Northern Light took the math, er words right out of my mouth, spreadsheet ;-)

It's 4.0 miles from Kennedy to Agincourt, 2.6 miles from Agincourt to Milliken (pardon my imperial railroad measure). Add in potential new stops. Just not enough distance to make higher speeds material..... the track alignment could be altered, at considerable cost.... but that money is better spend elsewhere.

- Paul

 

[generalcanada]

Important to remember here when @crs1026 says '60'...he's meaning Mile per Hour, or 100km/ph.

Within an urbanized area, and with distances generally at or below 4km between stops, its asking alot to get to a faster speed only to slow down again almost immediately.

If you search @reaperexpress 's posts, I'm sure he's got the acceleration rate for the trains somewhere, but regardless.....it takes time to get the train up to 60mph. Its a big beast.

At 100km/ph, you could cover 4km in 2 minutes 24s.

You're obviously not going to be at that speed the whole time. So let's just say, for argument's sake that you could hit 'peak speed' for the middle 2km.

That's 1m 12s at 100km/ph

At 80mph/120km/ph that's 1 minute.

So its only a savings of 12 seconds.

My at-speed math is solid, but as I noted, I don't know the exact curves on acceleration/braking.

But whether its such that you could shave as little as 8 seconds or as much as 20s its not a terribly exciting number over that distance.

I grant, its cumulative.......but still we're talking 2 minutes 'ish across most of the line?

While current locos have a top speed of 100kph. dont the electric trains intend to go 140kph? i remember reading that in the 2022 onexpress announcement. that on top of the extra acceleration from electric locos

 

[Sauga89]

I think the gist of the issue @Bojaxs asked about is that today the maximum speed limit is 40 miles per hour, or about 64 km per hour, not counting stops. In good traffic, I imagine you could probably drive faster than that. But if I understand what is being said here, the grade separations planned will bring that up to 50 or 60 miles per hour, or 80 to 100 km per hour? I wouldn't be disappointed by that. It sounds like you'd only need more than that if you wanted express trains.