[416InTrouble]

The Broadview Extension is much longer than just the part that gets to the station.

The first step will go at least to Lakeshore, as set out in the Environmental Assessment.

View attachment 692304

But streetcars can't run on the new Broadview to the station until they have a place to turn around. The initial loop will probably be around Commissioners, with the redevelopment of the McCleary District. Future ideas exist to send it over the shipping channel on a new bridge, to terminate at the Hearn, but presumably that won't happen until the Hearn is redeveloped.

.View attachment 692305

Would be great if the Broadview streetcar could loop across Commisioners and back to the city up Cherry street. The new Biidaasige park is already a busy area but we’ll wait until all the condos go in before anything gets done

 

[416InTrouble]

This is not correct. The Broadview extension to Lakeshore, under the tracks, is funded and will proceed in the next year or so.

Now, it will not have operating LRT/streetcar service right away, but the ROW will be constructed) whether that follows swiftly....... stay tuned.

This is not correct. The Broadview extension to Lakeshore, under the tracks, is funded and will proceed in the next year or so.

Now, it will not have operating LRT/streetcar service right away, but the ROW will be constructed) whether that follows swiftly....... stay tuned.

Spoken like a city bureaucrat. There is zero plan for a transit connection that will operate prior to EH being stood up. Delivering on a road first is us repeating our car first problematic past.

 

[Northern Light]

Spoken like a city bureaucrat. There is zero plan for a transit connection that will operate prior to EH being stood up. Delivering on a road first is us repeating our car first problematic past.

Excuse me!

I don't recall being rude to you..... and I am not an employee of any level of government. I simply corrected a misstatement on your part, politely.

 

[nfitz]

Spoken like a city bureaucrat. There is zero plan for a transit connection that will operate prior to EH being stood up. Delivering on a road first is us repeating our car first problematic past.

Why do you need transit before the station opens?

Good grief, they are literally building a subway station next to the GO station. How much frigging transit do you need? In the interim, it's literally a 300-metre walk to 3 different streetcar lines right now for those working at the Site.

And why assume there won't be any TTC service changes if the GO station opens before the subway? In addition to the streetcar UNDER the station, it might well make a better terminal for the 121 Esplanade-River bus - as the River section is (sadly) underused. On the south side of the East Harbour site, the 72 Pape is already looping along Lakeshore! You don't think it wouldn't be extended a couple of blocks to the station?

 

[urbanclient]

Excuse me!

I don't recall being rude to you..... and I am not an employee of any level of government. I simply corrected a misstatement on your part, politely.

Haha, I have no dog in this particular topic, but in my humble opinion, there are a quite a few Metrolinx insiders and/or apologists that actively quash any narratives that make Metrolinx look bad. For those that actually work at Metrolinx and feel compelled to correct the geeks here, this indicates some institutional culture issues at the very least. At worst, people putting effort in shaping narratives to keep forum users complacent rather than doing their jobs/improving transit/wanting to change company culture. Not going to name any names.

Even when more neutral users (e.g. Northern Light) say stuff, it can easily be interpreted as apologist behaviour even if it's just pointing out facts. Been a lot of setbacks in the last few years: Eglinton, Finch West, Line 2 extension, Ontario Line, GO Expansion, Kerr Street Grade separation, St. Clair Old Weston etc... all delayed and/or reduced in scale and scope. So I think it's completely understandable for the general public, much less transit enthusiasts to be mistrusting of reported timelines and resentful in general.

 

[nfitz]

Haha, I have no dog in this particular topic, but in my humble opinion, there are a quite a few Metrolinx insiders and/or apologists that actively quash any narratives that make Metrolinx look bad. For those that actually work at Metrolinx and feel compelled to correct the geeks here, this indicates some institutional culture issues at the very least. At worst, people putting effort in shaping narratives to keep forum users complacent rather than doing their jobs/improving transit/wanting to change company culture. Not going to name any names.

Even when more neutral users (e.g. Northern Light) say stuff, it can easily be interpreted as apologist behaviour even if it's just pointing out facts. Been a lot of setbacks in the last few years: Eglinton, Finch West, Line 2 extension, Ontario Line, GO Expansion, Kerr Street Grade separation, St. Clair Old Weston etc... all delayed and/or reduced in scale and scope. So I think it's completely understandable for the general public, much less transit enthusiasts to be mistrusting of reported timelines and resentful in general.

Are you suggesting that TTC wouldn't provide service to East Harbour station, if the streetcar wasn't ready?

One doesn't have to be a Metrolinx (? what's that got to do with streetcars) apologist to point out ignorant comments. I doubt anyone here thinks I'm an apologist for Metrolinx, the City, the TTC, or pretty much any transit organization!

 

[urbanclient]

Are you suggesting that TTC wouldn't provide service to East Harbour station, if the streetcar wasn't ready?

One doesn't have to be a Metrolinx (? what's that got to do with streetcars) apologist to point out ignorant comments.

I frankly have no clue about the actual topic 416 and NL were talking about. I just thought it was funny they were getting riled up. I do find it surprising the pushback people get for dunking on Metrolinx even when citing facts—going back years. That's coming from someone who only started following discussions earlier this year. Maybe I was mistaken in thinking this forum would feel like it had more vocal transit enthusiasts than Metrolinx people (speculation), but what do I know.

 

[nfitz]

I frankly have no clue about the actual topic 416 and NL were talking about.

I have no clue why someone would pipe in about something that they have no clue about!

Do you have an example of these supposed Metrolinx-shilling posts? I've really not see much. We've seen City-shilling and perhaps the odd TTC-shilling (though they are more common at a different forum), but Metrolinx-shilling?

 

[Northern Light]

.....

Even when more neutral users (e.g. Northern Light) say stuff, it can easily be interpreted as apologist behaviour even if it's just pointing out facts. Been a lot of setbacks in the last few years: Eglinton, Finch West, Line 2 extension, Ontario Line, GO Expansion, Kerr Street Grade separation, St. Clair Old Weston etc... all delayed and/or reduced in scale and scope. So I think it's completely understandable for the general public, much less transit enthusiasts to be mistrusting of reported timelines and resentful in general.

There shouldn't be a fight. I wrote a post in one of the related threads in the last couple of weeks suggesting that East Harbour Station should actually be deferred since there won't be residents, workers, or transit ready in time for its completion. Obviously we should finish enabling works (the bridge/underpass, tracks etc.

But for the time being we're building a rather ugly white elephant.

Aside from that, I can and will call all government agencies (and some developers/businesses to heel) for work that's over budget, late, or under-baked, and I do that quite regularly.)

So the other poster was just being antagonistic for no particular reason.

Being cynical about Mx.........be my guest, I've been there, done that, and have the T-shirt, and have yet to change my mind.....

Just don't equate me with being them, or their apologists, because I correct a factual error. Burying people always works better with the right facts.

 

[Northern Light]

I frankly have no clue about the actual topic 416 and NL were talking about. I just thought it was funny they were getting riled up.

I wasn't riled up till I got dunked on for no reason. I take exception to disrespect, particularly when founded on falsehoods.

I do find it surprising the pushback people get for dunking on Metrolinx even when citing facts—going back years. That's coming from someone who only started following discussions earlier this year. Maybe I was mistaken in thinking this forum would feel like it had more vocal transit enthusiasts than Metrolinx people (speculation), but what do I know.

There are threads I have avoided at times, because being anything other than a cheerleader was seen as bad. The Ontario Line comes to mind. Now that people are seeing that many of the things I tried to warn them about are coming to pass, and the projected achievement, timeline, and budget are all out the window.......

That said, I wouldn't say most here are Mx apologists, there are a few, who can be quite vocal though.

 

[nfitz]

But for the time being we're building a rather ugly white elephant.

I guess that would make Mount Dennis GO a white elephant as well.

I really don't see any need to open the train station until the subway open - similar to Line 5.

On the other hand, East Harbour GO delivery in 2027 doesn't preclude a temporary sidewalk and bus loop on one or both sides of the station.

Is there an estimate for when the subway station would be finished - I assumed it would all be built at once; and obviously it will be sitting for sometime until the subway opens.

 

[urbanclient]

I wasn't riled up till I got dunked on for no reason. I take exception to disrespect, particularly when founded on falsehoods.

Haha I tried to keep it vague, saying "they", meaning one or both.

There are threads I have avoided at times, because being anything other than a cheerleader was seen as bad. The Ontario Line comes to mind. Now that people are seeing that many of the things I tried to warn them about are coming to pass, and the projected achievement, timeline, and budget are all out the window.......

That said, I wouldn't say most here are Mx apologists, there are a few, who can be quite vocal though.

I don't think most users are apologists, or agents or employees of Mx, but many people do not make frequent posts. I obviously don't have stats to back me up but my sentiment is that some vocal posters, some of the "ummm actually" types, do support Mx and downplay Mx's or the Province's mistakes.

 

[nfitz]

I obviously don't have stats to back me up but my sentiment is that some vocal posters, some of the "ummm actually" types, do support Mx and downplay Mx's or the Province's mistakes.

Do we? Or are they making valid points.

Are those that pointed out the morons (elsewhere) complaining about Olivia Chow and the TTC not running enough Union Pearson trains after the last Blue Jays game, TTC apologists?

And those who blame Metrolinx for the initial Line 5 demand estimates - on a city project they weren't involved in - Metrolinx apologists?

Pointing out both the errors and accolades of a given agency isn't being an apologist. This isn't third-world USA politics.

 

[urbanclient]

Do we? Or are they making valid points.

Are those that pointed out the morons (elsewhere) complaining about Olivia Chow and the TTC not running enough Union Pearson trains after the last Blue Jays game, TTC apologists?

And those who blame Metrolinx for the initial Line 5 demand estimates - on a city project they weren't involved in - Metrolinx apologists?

Pointing out both the errors and accolades of a given agency isn't being an apologist. This isn't third-world USA politics.

"Some", not all, see my reference to Northern Light earlier.

I really didn't want to do this, but here is my ummm actually moment.
Regarding Line 5, I don't recall the crux of the debate on that thread being who exactly was responsible for ridership forecast, but whether or not ridership projections were accurate in planning route capacity i.e. 15k passengers per hour per direction, headways, vehicles. This considered the delays and population boom during said delays.

Without delving into the myriad changes and delays e.g. Rob Ford, city council...Yes the demand estimates from 2010 were done by TTC and Toronto, but Metrolinx was involved early on, then progressively took over until they got full control officially in 2012.
Source:
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-51449.pdf

Metrolinx was ultimately responsible on signing off on ridership forecasts used in the 2012 Eglinton case which I referenced in a previous post.

June 2012 Metrolinx Eglinton case:
https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/...etrolinx/Benefits_Case-Eglinton_Crosstown.pdf

In 2.4 (pg. 11/49) it says "The assumed employment and population forecasts used for the assessment are identified in ‘Places to Grow’ the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe area and is consistent with those used in the Regional Transportation Plan, The Big Move."
Big Move 2008 pdf:https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1663240133/Documents/Metrolinx/TheBigMove_020109.pdf

The Big Move 2008 says, "The GTHA, located in southern Ontario, is Canada’s largest urban region. It is also one of Canada’s fastest growing urban regions. With a current population of over six million people, it is forecast to be home to 8.6 million people by the year 2031."

Without fully accounting for undercounted visas and overstays, the GTHA population is already estimated to be 8.3 million as of July 1, 2024 (StatsCan). The true population of the GTHA could very well be 8.6 million already when factoring in NPR undercount claimed by Benjamin Tal from CIBC (https://economics.cibccm.com/cds?id=858756bd-a8fc-4920-8ea4-e1dcd1c104d4&flag=E).

Compare that with the TTC/Toronto Crosstown Environmental Project Report from 2010: https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1689691727/Images/Metrolinx/EA_complete.pdf

"2.1.2 Identification of Alternative Transit Technologies
The City of Toronto’s Official Plan forecasts a 270,000(10%) increase in the population of the City by 2031"

The city of Toronto has seen much more than a 270,000 increase in just the last 5 years, let alone since 2010. 2+ times more population growth has happened from 2010 to 2024 (600-700k) than what was forecast from 2010 to 2031 (270k). I don't think anyone, not even the IRCC could have predicted 15 years worth of growth in 5 years and that Toronto would reach ~3.3 million by July 2024 (StatsCan). That's why I never blamed Metrolinx for underestimating ridership and delivering less route capacity as a result.

StatsCan Population estimates:
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710015201

And those who blame Metrolinx for the initial Line 5 demand estimates - on a city project they weren't involved in - Metrolinx apologists?

But forget the ridership projection and capacity debate. The Eglinton Crosstown post 2007 was no longer just a city project.

Metrolinx was involved indirectly through planning Big Move by 2008. It was then announced as early as 2009 that Metrolinx would eventually take over. (https://stevemunro.ca/2009/07/06/queens-park-reveals-metrolinx-role/). By 2010, Metrolinx's eventual takeover was taking shape (https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/cc/bgrd/CC20_1_app3_3.pdf). By June 2011, Metrolinx had commissioned Steer Davies Gleave to update a 2009 case analysis. At the same time Mx completed an updated ridership forecast working with the TTC. All this before any construction started in late 2011. By the time tunnelling started in 2013, Metrolinx had been the sole government agency responsible for approving the new ridership forecasts, even if consultants did the work in 2011-2012.

"Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown updated ridership forecasts jointly prepared by TTC and Metrolinx (April – June 2011)"
https://transittoronto.ca/archives/...ton-scarborough-crosstown-update-20110623.pdf

In any case, I don't see it mattering whether or not the TTC/Toronto or Metrolinx is more or less responsible for ridership projections, underestimated, overestimated, or otherwise. Many people work from home now, and subway ridership is still only 76% of pre-pandemic levels, so maybe the population boom's effect on ridership has been cancelled out. We really won't know what ridership will be like until the line actually opens. Same goes for all the other transit projects in progress like GO Expansion. nfitz, you thought the ridership projections weren't nearly as underestimated as I thought. We can agree to disagree.

TTC Ridership recent stats:
https://www.ttc.ca/transparency-and-accountability/Monthly-Corporate-Metrics

 

[StreetcarRider]

This is not correct. The Broadview extension to Lakeshore, under the tracks, is funded and will proceed in the next year or so.

Now, it will not have operating LRT/streetcar service right away, but the ROW will be constructed) whether that follows swiftly....... stay tuned.

Does anybody know:
- will the current-day track work at Broadview & Queen add anything in anticipation of southbound service?
- when the extension is built south of Eastern Ave, will it have tracks or be like QQE in the Portlands (space reserved but no tracks)?