[innsertnamehere]

407 is a bit too far north for much of the city.

Define the “city”.

More people live in the 905 part of the GTA than the 416 remember.

The 407 isn’t super useful for toronto proper, but for the suburbs?

 

[canarob]

Define the “city”.

More people live in the 905 part of the GTA than the 416 remember.

The 407 isn’t super useful for toronto proper, but for the suburbs?

Exactly -- connecting the biggest "905 downtowns" and potentially (eventually?) every existing GO line might be the most impactful transit line that's been built in the region since the original Line 1.

 

[Adjei]

That is what MTO has planned internally.

It makes more sense to me than going to MCC and duplicating Milton Line for a good stretch.

What about the western extension of the Ontario Line ? I thought it was supposed to go to Kipling station.

 

[nfitz]

West to Dundas West. Nothing further for now.

Both have floated around in various government iterations of this project.

 

[duffo]

Yes, MTO has dropped the loop. The east-west line hits all those spots plus MCC/Square One. OL meets it at Highway 7 and Line 2 meets it at Renforth/Pearson-ish.

MTO's official 2051 GGH plan has the loop in there, do you mean Metrolinx has dropped it as part of the 2051 RTP? (Acknowledging the blurry lines between the two agencies). Line 2 to Renforth is interesting, but I do think not having a dedicated line down 427 from Humber College-Renforth-Kipling-Long Branch is a missed opportunity.

 

[WB62]

Some time between 2022 and now the loop was dropped. The RTP is currently in production and will more explicitly define transit projects that the government would like to pursue. Mx and MTO work quite closely on the RTP, it’s a joint production. But MTO has final say. So when loop was dropped, MTO made the final call

Do you know when the 2051 RTP is releasing? Maybe a rough estimation

 

[CapitalSeven]

I wonder if a Line 2 extension to Long Branch, with a stop at Sherway Gardens, has been evaluated.

It seems logical to me with the Sherway Gardens major redevelopment to serve that node, and then it's not much further to connect to the GO line. The GO connection would facilitate a lot of western suburbs to western Toronto travel, and provide a fast route into downtown from the Sherway Gardens redevelopment.

Is Sherway even the best destination for the subway? And there is already a heavy rail line running directly from Long Branch to Kipling. I think it has been suggested that a GO midtown line could have a branch down to the lakeshore.

 

[duty free]

Just a thought, but wouldn't the UP Express, Midtown Express, East-West Orbital 407 Line all make a lot more sense as Metro lines, like Sydney Metro? In an ideal (fantasy) world wouldn't this configuration make the most sense?

Sydney Metro (GO Metro) = UP Express, Midtown Express, East-West Orbital Line

Sydney Trains (GO Trains) = Lakeshore East, Lakeshore West, Milton, Barrie, Kitchener, Stouffville, Richmond Hill, (Bolton).

I think there would be a real high demand for all three GO Metro Lines. Probably > than 500k daily riders (weekday), but definitely not as commuter lines running 1to 4 trains an hour.

 

[Bojaxs]

Just a thought, but wouldn't the UP Express, Midtown Express, East-West Orbital 407 Line all make a lot more sense as Metro lines, like Sydney Metro? In an ideal (fantasy) world wouldn't this configuration make the most sense?

Sydney Metro (GO Metro) = UP Express, Midtown Express, East-West Orbital Line

Sydney Trains (GO Trains) = Lakeshore East, Lakeshore West, Milton, Barrie, Kitchener, Stouffville, Richmond Hill, (Bolton).

I think there would be a real high demand for all three GO Metro Lines. Probably > than 500k daily riders (weekday), but definitely not as commuter lines running 1to 4 trains an hour.

Converting the UP Express to a Metro would make sense. Especially considering they keep adding stops to the line.

I would like to see the Midtown line extend from Milton GO to Pickering GO (utilise the abandoned platform). That seems too long a distance for a metro.

407 should start as a bus transitway. If ridership proves to be higher than expected, upgrade it to a metro.

 

[taylortbb]

but definitely not as commuter lines running 1to 4 trains an hour.

I don't see why commuter trains can't have metro frequency. That feels like viewing the problem through a traditional North American lens, but we should be thinking European.

With ETCS, electrification, EMUs, and level boarding, there's no reason a commuter rail line can't have metro-like frequency. While also keeping the higher speeds of its mainline rail heritage.

If we're building a brand-new midtown line we don't have any of the legacy constraints of needing to keep service running while the upgrades are done. We can just build the line from the get go with modern equipment, signalling, and electrification.

 

[urbanclient]

Choosing between "commuter rail" / RER and metro is not really about wanting higher or being ok with lower top speeds.

While also keeping the higher speeds of its mainline rail heritage.

There is nothing stopping a metro from having faster top speeds than a North American commuter train. High speed metros can now top out at 140-160 km/h.

Also, the Sydney Metro's first line is/will be faster than the electrified RER-style trains it supplements in terms of average speed:

 

[duty free]

I don't see why commuter trains can't have metro frequency. That feels like viewing the problem through a traditional North American lens, but we should be thinking European.

With ETCS, electrification, EMUs, and level boarding, there's no reason a commuter rail line can't have metro-like frequency. While also keeping the higher speeds of its mainline rail heritage.

If we're building a brand-new midtown line we don't have any of the legacy constraints of needing to keep service running while the upgrades are done. We can just build the line from the get go with modern equipment, signalling, and electrification.

That’s exactly what I mean. Something like Sydney Metro or the Elizabeth Line or S-Bahn etc…

 

[reaperexpress]

That’s exactly what I mean. Something like Sydney Metro or the Elizabeth Line or S-Bahn etc…

But the whole point is that those are different technologies that can accomplish the same thing. The Sydney Metro is a metro, but Elizabeth line and S-Bahn are mainline rail. Yet all three of them provide fast, frequent quasi-regional service.

I've been saying for a while that if we want to cost-effectively free up capacity at Union Station for new services (e.g. Alto) we should divert one of the local GO services via the Ontario Line tunnels downtown. The obvious candidate would be the UP Express. In this case the objective is not to convert the technology, the objective is to increase the utility of the Queen Street tunnel that happens to be built per metro specifications.

 

[duffo]

But the whole point is that those are different technologies that can accomplish the same thing. The Sydney Metro is a metro, but Elizabeth line and S-Bahn are mainline rail. Yet all three of them provide fast, frequent quasi-regional service.

I've been saying for a while that if we want to cost-effectively free up capacity at Union Station for new services (e.g. Alto) we should divert one of the local GO services via the Ontario Line tunnels downtown. The obvious candidate would be the UP Express. In this case the objective is not to convert the technology, the objective is to increase the utility of the Queen Street tunnel that happens to be built per metro specifications.

Ooh, I think this is a really good idea actually. If people complain that the UP is "no longer Express", remind them that riders are saving ~7 minutes by using a train that comes every 90s instead of every 15 mins.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The last

Ooh, I think this is a really good idea actually. If people complain that the UP is "no longer Express", remind them that riders are saving ~7 minutes by using a train that comes every 90s instead of every 15 mins.

Honestly... I might be brought around to this plan if it gained a branch (or was diverted to through run at Pearson) to Brampton and solved the track constraints beyond Bramalea by... being a metro and goign elevated.