[CapitalSeven]

A northern extension of the Ontario Line is contemplated. It ranks very highly too. But is 4th or 5th in the pecking order of major projects not yet announced as funded. So far as I know there is not yet any real work on that file; but the concept exists.

It's almost literally a stone' throw from the end of the OL tail tracks to where the midtown line crosses Don Mills Road. Even if the full extension isn't ready to go, an extra station, even just a single track and platform for the transfer, would take very little effort.

Some would say a midtown GO line is an argument to run the OL West up Dufferin, with a station at Dupont serving a rail connection and the Galleria development.

 

[Sauga89]

It's almost literally a stone' throw from the end of the OL tail tracks to where the midtown line crosses Don Mills Road. Even if the full extension isn't ready to go, an extra station, even just a single track and platform for the transfer, would take very little effort.

View attachment 736242

Some would say a midtown GO line is an argument to run the OL West up Dufferin, with a station at Dupont serving a rail connection and the Galleria development.

For that to work, you'd have two GO stops less than a kilometre apart, if we assume that there would also be a stop at Sunnybrook Park on the Eglinton line. In hindsight, it might have been better to route the Ontario line north along Beth Nealson Drive to Sunnybrook Park station. I'm not sure the Flemingdon Park station adds as much value as an interchange with the Midtown line would.

(EDIT: Plus, my assumption is that if the province can work out a GO 2.0 framework with CPKC, you might be able to divert some Union-bound traffic onto the Richmond Hill line at both Leslie and Sunnybrook Park stations. I imagine that would help balance out any crowding on Line 1 created by a Summerhill GO stop.)

 

[duffo]

I for the life of me do not understand the rationale for Midtown GO, other than the opportunity of an existing railway - Summerhill is not a major node. GO Rail along the future 407 Transitway seems like a bunch stronger win for regional connectivity.

But if the CP line is going to be used, could it be tied into the existing Richmond Hill line tracks around Millwood, adding connectivity to downtown for very transit-sparse areas of Scarborough? (Thinking stops at Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard, Malvern)

 

[PL1]

For that to work, you'd have two GO stops less than a kilometre apart, if we assume that there would also be a stop at Sunnybrook Park on the Eglinton line. In hindsight, it might have been better to route the Ontario line north along Beth Nealson Drive to Sunnybrook Park station. I'm not sure the Flemingdon Park station adds as much value as an interchange with the Midtown line would.

(EDIT: Plus, my assumption is that if the province can work out a GO 2.0 framework with CPKC, you might be able to divert some Union-bound traffic onto the Richmond Hill line at both Leslie and Sunnybrook Park stations. I imagine that would help balance out any crowding on Line 1 created by a Summerhill GO stop.)

I would think a single GO 2.0 stop at Don Mills North of Eglinton, with connections to OL and Line 5 (but a bit of a walk)... Anyway, kinda getting ahead of ourselves here

Edit to add The tracks are about 400m north of Eg, and 200m north of Wynford. So not close, but not impossible.

 

[lastcommodore]

I for the life of me do not understand the rationale for Midtown GO, other than the opportunity of an existing railway - Summerhill is not a major node. GO Rail along the future 407 Transitway seems like a bunch stronger win for regional connectivity.

But if the CP line is going to be used, could it be tied into the existing Richmond Hill line tracks around Millwood, adding connectivity to downtown for very transit-sparse areas of Scarborough? (Thinking stops at Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard, Malvern)

Well, yes, i'm not sure anyone would be talking about the Midtown GO line if there was no railway at all. The hubbub about it is primarily that the benefit/cost is incredibly high for a transit project
- The rail is indeed already there
- It has room for more rail, as it already did-- a split corridor a la LE with freight and passenger totally separated is possible
- Downtown / downtown adjacent (depending on who you ask lol)
- Though everyone focuses on connections to 1, there's no reason we couldn't extend it eastwards into Scarborough and even into Pickering with a single tie-in onto the CN tracks where the CP/CN cross at Plug Hat Rd (Though that last stretch will probably be much harder due to track limitations)
- Has connection opportunities for the LW, MI, 2, 1, ~5, OL, ~ST, 4 East ext., SSE, LE
- Bypasses Union, which is very good for both system stability and speed

I suspect it's probably going to start with a relatively barebones schedule, but with some relatively easy improvements compared to every other GO line, it really has the opportunity to become a vital 15 minute or lower E/W corridor that connects both the city within and the GTA as a whole, especially with a Lakeshore-Midtown config available. Assuming a 60kmh rolling average, a trip from STC -> Kipling could take just 30m, whereas STC -> Kipling via SSE will probably take upwards of an hour.

I have previously drawn up theoretical maps of a 407 regional train route, and it is one that I'd love to see built. It would absolutely be great for regional connectivity outside of Toronto. You are also talking a LOT of time and a LOT of money.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Probably for good reason. The BRTs, I'm on board with. Subway from Sheppard McCowan to Markham Centre? What is the City of Toronto smoking?

Anybody with half a brain would know an Ontario Line West extension would be a better value than a Line 2 or 4 extension to Markham Centre (9-10 km)...

A Jane LRT from Eglinton to Pioneer Village would require a 4-5 km tunnel. Also highly suspect. A holdover from Transit City no doubt.

A Line 6 Finch West extension to Finch station would also require tunnelling. But at least they can use "sunk costs" to justify it.

Jane can be a northern extension of the OL, would increase ridership.

The Bloor Danforth extension has been debated although Sheppard McCowan was the absolute limit, maybe a one stop extension to Finch but then yet another terminal is needed.

Finch should go across town.

 

[urbanclient]

Jane can be a northern extension of the OL, would increase ridership.

The Bloor Danforth extension has been debated although Sheppard McCowan was the absolute limit, maybe a one stop extension to Finch but then yet another terminal is needed.

Finch should go across town.

I agree with what you're saying.

I lament being stuck with low floor vehicles if subway-cost tunnelling is needed for Finch.

The City's "assumed technology" for Jane from Bloor to Eglinton and Eglinton to Pioneer Village was LRT according to the document linked above. Which must be a holdover from Transit City as it appears no lessons were learned from Line 5. From Bloor to Steeles you'd need a 8+km tunnel for Jane... The ROW is too narrow for both Jane and Finch LRTs. Other choice being large swaths of expropriation and demolition, which I doubt would be cost-effective or politically feasible.

From a City of Toronto Report in 2024:

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2024/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-243162.pdf

View attachment 736235

 

[NGP.77]

Spoiler

Midtown GO

Due to Line 2 and 5, Midtown scores very low. The purpose of serving cross-region trips has been replaced by a project mostly along the 407 corridor. It was publicly revealed in the 2022 Connecting the GGH report as the “east-west line”. Lots of work is being done on this at Mx and it may be a cornerstone in RTP 2051.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I for the life of me do not understand the rationale for Midtown GO, other than the opportunity of an existing railway - Summerhill is not a major node. GO Rail along the future 407 Transitway seems like a bunch stronger win for regional connectivity.

But if the CP line is going to be used, could it be tied into the existing Richmond Hill line tracks around Millwood, adding connectivity to downtown for very transit-sparse areas of Scarborough? (Thinking stops at Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard, Malvern)

Removal of pressure from Union and Exhibition.

Question for the board, is Cambridge all day service a good investment in the long run? Seems like it's really expensive to implement... but the line would have decent ridership.

 

[crs1026]

Removal of pressure from Union and Exhibition.

Question for the board, is Cambridge all day service a good investment in the long run? Seems like it's really expensive to implement... but the line would have decent ridership.

Cambridge is akin to Stratford - a good investment once it can be run as an incremental extension to a heavy 2WAD route. The cost of upgrading the Milton- Cambridge section to permit a modest service will be rounding error within the envelope of what it will cost when Milton 2WAD finally comes to be.

- Paul

 

[duffo]

Due to Line 2 and 5, Midtown scores very low. The purpose of serving cross-region trips has been replaced by a project mostly along the 407 corridor. It was publicly revealed in the 2022 Connecting the GGH report as the “east-west line”. Lots of work is being done on this at Mx and it may be a cornerstone in RTP 2051.

This tracks with what I have heard as well.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Cambridge is akin to Stratford - a good investment once it can be run as an incremental extension to a heavy 2WAD route. The cost of upgrading the Milton- Cambridge section to permit a modest service will be rounding error within the envelope of what it will cost when Milton 2WAD finally comes to be.

- Paul

ChatGPT and Copilot both said double tracking to Lisgar would cost less than 3 billion and with sidings to Milton can do 30 minute service offpeak, for what its worth.

 

[taylortbb]

ChatGPT and Copilot both said double tracking to Lisgar would cost less than 3 billion and with sidings to Milton can do 30 minute service offpeak, for what its worth.

LLMs specialize in creating plausible looking output. When there's relevant data in their training data they can be quite useful, but I seriously doubt the quality/quantity of rail cost estimate data in their training data. In this case they're far more likely to be producing plausible-looking bullshit than useful information. Too many details that would be relevant are simply not public information, the models weren't trained on CPKC's internal data.

I'm not anti-AI, but they're tools to be used with one's brain, not instead of. They'll gladly say they're certain regardless of whether it's good data or pure hallucination.

 

[Sunnyside]

Think GO

That narrows it down quite a bit then. Didn’t think we were bringing GO into the loop. But enough has been said about what those could be. Personally hope it’s the very-well-scoring orbital line, but realistically it’s the Milton/Midtown.