[Burnt creek]

Line 6 Finch West: No service between Finch West and Humber College stations due to a mechanical problem. Shuttle buses are running between Finch West and Humber College.

It’s a FESTIVUS for the REST-OF-US….who would like to start the airing of grievances?



They were built like that because the geniuses behind “TrAnSiT cITy” didn’t think people would be waiting very long outside for a grey streetcar to arrive, one that’s completely at the mercy of left-turning cars and has effectively zero signal priority. “You’ll get from Finch West to Humber in 35 minutes!” they said. “Why would anyone need proper shelter?”.

Meanwhile here’s what the VIVA BRT shelters look like.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/MajorMacKenzieVIVAStation.jpg

The Mississauga BRT has actual stations whereby you can wait inside

 

[Burnt creek]

Speaking of Mississauga BRT, that service and route is perfect candidate for an LRT service. You have proper stations, You have good spacing of stops (one km plus for each stop), you have complete grade separation, its a road that is used only by City buses, and you have the right density for an LRT. LRT's do have place and that's perfect place to put a proper LRT. Just not in Toronto.

PS.: I recall hearing that there is already been talk of doing just that with that route and that it was built with future LRT service in mind.

 

[6ixGod]

The Mississauga BRT has actual stations whereby you can wait inside

View attachment 705193

This is precisely how the Hurontario LRT should have been approached. Trench it, keep it fully separated, and place the stations under the intersections, just like the Mississauga Transitway. That project literally existed as a ready-made case study, built in the same city, under the same climatic conditions, and for the same type of suburbia demographic.

What makes this even more baffling is that Mississauga clearly understood the principle. They recognised that buses could not function reliably in mixed traffic, so they gave them their own dedicated right-of-way with proper stations where people can wait indoors. If that logic applied to buses, how did Metrolinx conclude that surface-running LRTs interacting with traffic with useless shelters be appropriate or sufficient?

Hurontario is a stroad….it has the space, the width, and the precedent. Instead of building on a proven model, they opted for street-level LRT with intersections, signals, weather exposure, and conflict points baked in from day one. That wasn’t a technical necessity, it was a policy choice. And this ties into the bigger problem. We now have three failed LRT examples in the GTA showing the same pattern:

LRTs consistently fail to live up to how they’re marketed. They’re sold as “rapid transit,” but function like upgraded streetcars. They’re sold as cheaper and faster to build, yet they drag on for years and deliver compromised speed, capacity, and reliability. At some point it becomes clear the issue isn’t execution alone, it’s the mode choice and the way it’s being sold.

 

[ThenWhat]

Speaking of Mississauga BRT, that service and route is perfect candidate for an LRT service. You have proper stations, You have good spacing of stops (one km plus for each stop), you have complete grade separation, its a road that is used only by City buses, and you have the right density for an LRT. LRT's do have place and that's perfect place to put a proper LRT. Just not in Toronto.

PS.: I recall hearing that there is already been talk of doing just that with that route and that it was built with future LRT service in mind.

That seems like a good approach. Why don't we see more of such projects that start as BRT which can be converted to LRT if that turns out to be appropriate 15 or 20 years later?

 

[Bordercollie]

Snow on switches caused it to be shut down as well as communication issues.

Maybe it would be a good idea to have crews actually proactively clean the switches. It's not like they didn't know it was going to snow.

Seems like a no brainer

 

[McGillicuddy]

Tell me more about how LRTs work great in Toronto. And you have people on this forum threatening me to be quiet and not say anything because it annoys them. Imagine being a resident of Jane & Finch and having to ride this joke everyday….imagine how annoyed they must feel.But who are we inferior peons of the outer boroughs? We don’t count apparently….no….we’re told to SHUT UP and take it.

Shut up we won’t. This is Toronto whether you like it or not. Deal with the fallout for your decisions now and put up with people who demand basic functioning public transport.

Is that TOO MUCH to ask?

You are taking this snowstorm extremely personally.

 

[Steve X]

That seems like a good approach. Why don't we see more of such projects that start as BRT which can be converted to LRT if that turns out to be appropriate 15 or 20 years later?

I doubt the Mississauga Transitway will ever get converted to a LRT in out lifetime. Mark my words. Feel free to quote 50 years later. It is not seeing the success the Ottawa Transitways saw.

As for Finch West, it would also work well if they build it as an express bus line with curb bus lanes. Sheppard East would do just fine too with a curb bus lane. The city just went with LRT to improve midrise development. Giving how well the current lines are functioning, the 986 express bus route would probably be faster the Eglinton East LRT.

I also have to say Line 6 has been a lot worse than most of us LRT supports have wished for. It painted a very bad image of the technology. Especially when cities out there such as Houston has a similar system build over 2 decades ago and yet this city can't copy an existing model.

 

[Bojaxs]

Speaking of Mississauga BRT, that service and route is perfect candidate for an LRT service. You have proper stations, You have good spacing of stops (one km plus for each stop), you have complete grade separation, its a road that is used only by City buses, and you have the right density for an LRT. LRT's do have place and that's perfect place to put a proper LRT. Just not in Toronto.

PS.: I recall hearing that there is already been talk of doing just that with that route and that it was built with future LRT service in mind.

When you say Mississauga BRT, are you referring to the Transitway?

Why upgrade a bus Transitway to an LRT? Why repeat the mistake that Ottawa made?

Why not upgrade it to something like the Merseyrail in Liverpool? Or the Tyne & Wear Metro in Newcastle? A light Metro. Have it go underground when it passes through the Square One area. Heck, if we were smart, we would even have the Hurontario line use the same rolling stock and offer seamless transfers. Travel on elevated lines south to Port Credit, and go underground in downtown Brampton.

 

[yurt2022]

When you say Mississauga BRT, are you referring to the Transitway?

Why upgrade a bus Transitway to an LRT? Why repeat the mistake that Ottawa made?

Why not upgrade it to something like the Merseyrail in Liverpool? Or the Tyne & Wear Metro in Newcastle? A light Metro. Have it go underground when it passes through the Square One area. Heck, if we were smart, we would even have the Hurontario line use the same rolling stock and offer seamless transfers. Travel on elevated lines south to Port Credit, and go underground in downtown Brampton.

Exactly.

The bus works better than an Ontario-designed/operated LRT ever would.

Limit on the transitway right now is 80, I'd expect that to go down if an LRT was routed there for "safety."

The transitway could be amazing if MiWay stopped padding its schedules so much.

 

[Burnt creek]

When you say Mississauga BRT, are you referring to the Transitway?

Yes, I was referring to the Transitway

 

[APTA-2048]

Snow on switches caused it to be shut down as well as communication issues.

Maybe it would be a good idea to have crews actually proactively clean the switches. It's not like they didn't know it was going to snow.

Seems like a no brainer

Snow clearing should be Mosaic’s responsibility. And it appears both times we’ve had snow, they’ve done a shit job.

 

[JasonParis]

There is another major downside in this service is the sheltering at the station stops. I rode a portion of the line Wednesday (just to see it for myself) and on the return trip i had to wait at one of those stops for about 5 mins and i kept wishing that the stops would protect me from the weather as well bus stop shelters. You get much better sheltering from the elements at a bus stop than at the Finch LRT stops. The typical bus stops, though smallish, protect you well from the wind and precipitation when you go deep inside it. Whereas these stop shelters on this line barely protect you from precipitation and leave you fully exposed to wind and cold. ;

Ironically, I remember someone at Metrolinx once stating that more weather cover wasn't particularly necessary due to the frequency and reliability of what they were building. In other words, nobody would be waiting more than a few minutes.

 

[6ixGod]

The Simpsons Monorail song really incapsulates everything doesn’t it…..

“An LRT will do the job! Just ignore the detours and cost overruns! ELL ARE TEE….ELL ARE TEEEEE…..ELL ARE TEEEEEEEEEEE”
“Mono….doh!”

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

The Simpsons Monorail song really incapsulates everything doesn’t it…..

“An LRT will do the job! Just ignore the detours and cost overruns! ELL ARE TEE….ELL ARE TEEEEE…..ELL ARE TEEEEEEEEEEE”
“Mono….doh!”

Respectfully... Shut Up. This is a new line experiencing all the new line issues. Issues that will be worked out the longer it operates in revenue service. Your continuous beating of the dead horse is not going to change anything.

Three obvious stops to remove are
1. Driftwood
2. Duncanwoods
3. Stevenson

These stops don't need to be removed to improve service. All you would accomplish by doing so is removing service from areas that are currently in the works for redevelopment and intensification.

 

[urbanclient]

Respectfully... Shut Up. This is a new line experiencing all the new line issues. Issues that will be worked out the longer it operates in revenue service. Your continuous beating of the dead horse is not going to change anything.

These stops don't need to be removed to improve service. All you would accomplish by doing so is removing service from areas that are currently in the works for redevelopment and intensification.

@jordanmkasla2009 They're ragebaiting anyone who still has some sympathy for trams in Toronto. Out of the 4 current LRT projects, the only real defence IMO should be for the Hamilton LRT at this point, even if its 2023 routing change is highly suspect. The Hamilton LRT's route has significantly more density with more significant trip generators in McMaster University, Downtown, MacNab Terminal, and Eastgate Mall. And its future demand growth (related to its proximity to Toronto) is right at a point where a metro wouldn't be needed, or at least wouldn't be needed for a very long time.

Hurontario cuts through the largest CBD outside of Toronto proper, and is poised to be the busiest corridor in Mississauga (aka future West Etobicoke/West Toronto). Eglinton similar story.

Finch West is not dense enough for a tram, and unfortunately it doesn't look like it will be dense enough any time soon. Consider the fact that Toronto proper has about 200 tower cranes versus 2nd place Los Angeles with around 50. Toronto is the fastest densifying city in North America in terms of mid/high-rises, and yet there are hardly 3 apartments/condos in pre-construction along Finch West right now, 11, 12, and 30 storeys west to east. Developers have had ample time since Line 6 started early construction in 2016 to build in anticipation of a modal upgrade to tram:

"*Starting Q3 2024, Toronto will report on an altered survey area. We will be implementing a revised radius for crane counting, prioritizing the downtown core area, which has the highest density of construction projects. The revised radius is 3.5km from the Bloor St W and Avenue Rd center. As of Q1 2024, this core area contributes to approximately 35% of the overall Toronto crane count (80 cranes)." —Rider Levett Bucknall

I concur with @FW36's post which is why I always say in hindsight Finch West definitively did not deserve a tram. IMO, without hindsight, it would've been only erroneous to upgrade Finch West before/without doing bus lanes throughout the city, especially Old Toronto.

To be fair the set of facts before 2020 leaned towards building the LRT

1. The 36 bus ridership was steadily increasing and a lot of buses were running at capacity. I remember during rush hour sometimes multiple buses would pass-by without stopping due to capacity issues or up to 5 buses would be bunched together and all completely full.

2. Around 2010's Humber College announced they would focus there expansion project mostly on there north campus. York University also had expansion plans so it was safe to assume further increase in ridership from the greater amount of students

3. Interest rates before 2020 were low. The city wanted to encourage more private development for housing as there was a lack of new residential construction along the corridor. Historically LRT encourage more development than BRT. This would have resulted in more housing options for those who live around the area


So overall prior to 2020 the big picture was buses already having capacity issues, expected growth of post secondary education in the area, and potential for large scale redevelopment and population growth leading to even higher ridership.


Now let's look at the current set of facts.
1. Ridership for the 36 bus has decreased since the pandemic and has not recovered.

2. Currently there is a decrease in the enrollment of international students and increase in the amount of classes offered online. Humber College North has slowed down its plans as well

3. Interest rates are higher than before plus increase on development charges are making it is harder for developers to build. Most likely a lot of residential projects along the line will be delayed or canceled.

With current set of facts a BRT would be more justified, it would have been cheaper the build and provide required capacity.

However a lot of the draw backs were because the pandemic. If it never occured mostly likely the 36 would have continued to see increased ridership, I imagine online classes would not be as common, and if interest rates remained low I imagine there would have been more opportunities for redevelopment projects.

I don't think planners were thinking what impact a potential world shaking event would have on the Finch West LRT back in 2010.

As the line currently stands a BRT would be acceptable. But an LRT can still be also justifiable, it would just require the city to do more work. Giving the LRT priority, increasing speed limits, and better stop placement would mean faster transit encouraging more ridership. The city could lower development charges and change zoning laws to encourage redevelopment along the corridor. The city could also lower develpment fees for post-secondary institutions to encourage investment. With these changes I would say LRT is perfectly fine and acceptable, but if Toronto tries nothing to improve the current situation than it 100 percent Finch west should have been built as a BRT