[jmi22]

I'd like to set the record straight on this.

The intention was to pillage the Finch West LRT funds for his Sheppard Subway extension. In no way was a future Finch West subway going to happen even if they got the votes. In fact Rob Ford only added the BRT-Lite proposal (that came before the Finch vote) because of the high ridership numbers on Finch. His original draft/plan was going to neglect Finch outright. Changing to BRT-Lite still freed up some money to throw in his Sheppard plan while retaining his anti-surface rail policy. And his anti-surface rail policy came from his belief that LRT vehciles were going to be interfering with traffic on Finch just like on Queen - it had nothing to do about transit speed or operations.

If you flip the concern over LRT's meeting cars at grade and thus slowing vehicular traffic, to see it as cars meeting LRT at grade and thus slowing transit operations (i.e having to stop at intersections), Ford and Mammo's concerns were quite explicitly about slow travel speeds, they just emphasized the impact a street running line would have on a different road user than you would typically emphasize.

For all the attacks on their intelligence Ford and the like endured for opposing Transit City and the viability of street-running LRT in Toronto, he sure was more right in the end than every planning and engineering "professional" who giddily cheered these farces along. Turns out just watching current operations (the downtown streetcars) gets you a clearer picture than a 1000 page business case based moreso in recollections of a Euro vacation spent riding trams than actual reality.

 

[urbanclient]

If you flip the concern over LRT's meeting cars at grade and thus slowing vehicular traffic, to see it as cars meeting LRT at grade and thus slowing transit operations (i.e having to stop at intersections), Ford and Mammo's concerns were quite explicitly about slow travel speeds, they just emphasized the impact a street running line would have on a different road user than you would typically emphasize.

For all the attacks on their intelligence Ford and the like endured for opposing Transit City and the viability of street-running LRT in Toronto, he sure was more right in the end than every planning and engineering "professional" who giddily cheered these farces along. Turns out just watching current operations (the downtown streetcars) gets you a clearer picture than a 1000 page business case based moreso in recollections of a Euro vacation spent riding trams than actual reality.

Car ownership rates and walkable street design in the inner cities of Europe do not apply to a suburb 20 km outside of Toronto's downtown.

Who would've expected such a wild revelation....

 

[JSF-1]

And pillaging funds for the Sheppard Subway extension would have been the right thing to do.

You and I both know that was never going to happen though, not with the political climate at the time where it was subways or nothing. Ford and by extension Glenn De Baeremaeker locked us into a quagmire that meant either we could only build what was already planned (Finch West and the EC) or build nothing at all. Your idea is noble but the political reality at the time was that Ford and Scarborough would have stone walled anything that took away from transit expansion in Scarborough including a possible extension of Line 4. So it was either we move ahead with the EC, Line 6, and the SSE or cancel all three and waste yet another decade where nothing is built, no subways, no LRT,s and no BRT's.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Sydney’s new LRT was bemoaned for taking over 50 minutes when it started but now only takes over 30 minutes so there’s hope yet.

 

[ThenWhat]

To whom it may concern: only in North America are these called LRVs and LRT. In Europe this would be considered a street-running tram, which is directly analogous to a Toronto streetcar. Fighting over semantics just shows you've never set foot outside the continent. Line 6 is in every way a streetcar. […]

Not sure if anybody is fighting over semantics. I must have missed something.

I would be perfectly happy to call Line 6 a streetcar. But the powers that be decided that would not do. Now that the money has been spent and the performance is what it is, perhaps TTC will give it a 500+ number and stop calling it LRT, as was previously done with Spadina and Harbourfront lines.

 

[wheelloader]

I rode 510 Spadina streetcar on Saturday then line 6 LRT on Sunday, just for comparison. I would say both speeds are slow and ride is not much different. The line 6 ride from Finch West to Humber took 50min and I sat on the seat right behind the driver cabin for the view of the track and incoming lights. I think we stopped at 2/3 of the intersections along the route however I suspect whether the TSP will actually speed thing up or not, much. I felt half of the stop we had to wait can be avoided, simply by the TTC operator to drive it 'normally'. So many times I felt the driver just feather the accelerator paddle then glide for the next light turning to yellow. Keep in mind that the traffic light for LRT turns yellow almost 5-6 seconds before the normal lights turns to yellow. It makes me feel that the driver is afraid of the LRT won't stop if she has to stop from full speed (I mean >30km/h). This is different from the Streetcar as the ride to stop is much normal, as long as it is not going through a cross with other streetcar intersect. I hope this is just a temporary things and they can bring the speed up eventually. Otherwise, the TSP will just make it a long green for pass through traffic on Finch.

 

[Bordercollie]

The station dwell times are too long. They are longer than subway dwell times.
The train only reaches 30kmph and has to stop at red lights.
The queen streetcar is faster.
I find that the Flexity fleet has a better ride.

 

[Burnt creek]

Line 6 is not only slower than the 36 bus, it is also slower than the 41 + 996 TTC bus. It has also been calculated to be slower than taking Line 1 to Highway 407 station and taking the new 40M GO bus starting January 3, 2026. The upper range of the trip times on Line 6 (10.3 km) are exceeding Line 1 Vaughan to Finch (38.4 km) times, which is ridiculous.

We raced TTC's Line 6 on a bus and it was so slow we had time to stop for a snack

Toronto's newest transit line debuted on Dec. 7 to brutally bad reviews, and it seems that even a few weeks into service, the TTC has not ironed out …

www.blogto.com

To whom it may concern: only in North America are these called LRVs and LRT. In Europe this would be considered a street-running tram, which is directly analogous to a Toronto streetcar. Fighting over semantics just shows you've never set foot outside the continent. Line 6 is in every way a streetcar. LRTs even in the United States often have stronger grade-separation for most, if not all of its routing. Conversely, LRTs in Asia are virtually all light metros. See Kelana Jaya line in Malaysia and my metro vs. tram post below: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelana_Jaya_line

And pillaging funds for the Sheppard Subway extension would have been the right thing to do. I will die on this hill that Finch West did not deserve an LRT before transit improvements were made along other denser, more deserving corridors. A competent transit plan would have prioritized the many over the few. And while trying to help the few over the many, Line 6 ends up doing neither.

Here is what I predict will happened: They will find a way (likely through signal prioritization) to reduce the commuting time. But that's where the smokescreen will occur. My estimate back in 2016 (whereby i compared the commuting time/speed to that of a good marathoner or 10k runner) was based on the specs from Metrolinx at the time that stated that the total distance of 10K could be covered in approx 33 minutes. That amounts to just under 20 km/hr. but that is still too slow for commuters. The smoke screen will be that they will claim victory in making it faster and getting it to MAYBE the planned estimated times but in reality the commuters will still have to endure horribly slow commutes instead of horrendously slow commutes. Even at planned optimum speeds, any e-scooter can beat that easily (at half throttle) and the e-scooter may even become preferred option for many people on that route.

 

[Bordercollie]

Here is what I predict will happened: They will find a way (likely through signal prioritization) to reduce the commuting time. But that's where the smokescreen will occur. My estimate back in 2016 (whereby i compared the commuting time/speed to that of a good marathoner or 10k runner) was based on the specs from Metrolinx at the time that stated that the total distance of 10K could be covered in approx 33 minutes. That amounts to just under 20 km/hr. so that is still to slow for commuters. The smoke screen will be that they will claim victory in making it faster and getting it to MAYBE the planned estimated times but in reality the commuters will still have to endure ridiculously slow commutes that are horrible instead of horrendous. Even at planned optimum speeds, any e-scooter can beat that easily (without full throttle) and the e-scooter may even become preferred option for many people on that route.

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

 

[JasonParis]

Totally. I’ve seen this used as the standard in Europe. First, it shortens dwell times when no one is boarding or alighting. Second, it keeps the vehicle’s climate far better controlled.

 

[Bordercollie]

Totally. I’ve seen this used as the standard in Europe. First, it shortens dwell times when no one is boarding or alighting. Second, it keeps the vehicle’s climate far better controlled.

In winter and summer.

 

[JSF-1]

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

The answer to that question is the same answer as to why we don't use the door buttons on the streetcars, that is the average person would forget to breath if it wasn't done automatically. I was actually reading earlier that the ICTS Mk.I trains in Vancouver originally had door-open buttons but they were removed due to passenger confusion and door jamming so there is unfortunately real world precedence for this. When presented with a glowing green button, for some reason over here in North America the average riders brain just malfunctions instead of doing what I thought would be the instinctual thing and push it. This is probably why we also had to tape big "PUSH" stickers to the yellow bars on the rear doors of buses, so maybe we should add a sticker below the button that says "PUSH TO OPEN WHEN LIT"

 

[Steve X]

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

TTC doesn't want to insult "dumb" riders when they just stand there waiting for the doors to open. Shouting through the speaker doesn't help cause either they never seen a button, their IQ is too low or they simply don't understand English. They had the whole decade top educate everyone on the downtown streetcar system but chose to simply let everyone inside freeze instead. Of course the TTC can't run a educational campaign properly either.

 

[APTA-2048]

Yet somehow, annoyingly, everyone on the legacy system seems to know how to press the button when the doors are closing and the streetcar is supposed be driving away. That and the slow doors are really annoying when you end up missing a light.

 

[Bojaxs]

Here is what I predict will happened: They will find a way (likely through signal prioritization) to reduce the commuting time. But that's where the smokescreen will occur. My estimate back in 2016 (whereby i compared the commuting time/speed to that of a good marathoner or 10k runner) was based on the specs from Metrolinx at the time that stated that the total distance of 10K could be covered in approx 33 minutes. That amounts to just under 20 km/hr. but that is still too slow for commuters. The smoke screen will be that they will claim victory in making it faster and getting it to MAYBE the planned estimated times but in reality the commuters will still have to endure ridiculously slow commutes that are horrible instead of horrendous. Even at planned optimum speeds, any e-scooter can beat that easily (at half throttle) and the e-scooter may even become preferred option for many people on that route.

After implementing TPS, they'll seriously have to consider knocking down some of the stations. There's too many stops on Line 6. Got to allow the trams to pick up some speed between stations.

Why do they keep the doors open at stations when nobody is getting on or off? I think instead you should have to press the button for the door to open.

Apparently it's an ongoing issue with the Alstom Citadis Spirits. Go back a few pages and I asked the same question. There's an issue where the doors are prone to malfunction if they're opened and closed too many times within a short time span. So they just opt to leave them open at every station.

The answer to that question is the same answer as to why we don't use the door buttons on the streetcars, that is the average person would forget to breath if it wasn't done automatically. I was actually reading earlier that the ICTS Mk.I trains in Vancouver originally had door-open buttons but they were removed due to passenger confusion and door jamming. When presented with a glowing green button for some reason, over here in North America the average riders brain just malfunctions instead of doing what I thought would be the instinctual thing and push it. This is probably why we also had to tape big "PUSH" stickers to the yellow bars on the rear doors of buses

The C-trains in Calgary still utilise the door buttons. I remember the first time I rode a C-train in Calgary a couple years ago. When the train pulled up to the platform ,I positioned myself in front of the door and stood there waiting for it to open for me. After about 5 seconds, another rider behind me moved up next to me and pressed the door button to open the door. I guess at that point I showed how "Toronto" I was. I expect doors to just open for me.

Thankfully it was a freezing cold winter day. I had my face all covered up so the other folks couldn't see the dumbfounded look on my face as I stood there on the platform assessing what I just witnessed.