[nightstreak]

Updated Map:

View attachment 702061View attachment 702062View attachment 702064

Why are they clinging to these outdated lightbulbs behind a printed map? Wouldn't a display be more useful and dynamic for conveying information? A static map on the screen, callouts for the upcoming station and interchanges and above ground connections, service notices. That would be more useful than trying to cram everything on a map.

 

[urbanclient]

Even an announcement on opening day

"hey, we are still testing things and speeds will increase"

but the thing is, thats not what this is. The TTC is actually PROUD of this launch and this line. They thought this was OK. There was no mandate to improve schedules, and in fact they argued at the town hall the other night that speeding up trains would mean they are ahead of schedule. So they were perfectly fine with the line taking 47 minutes from end to end.

There was no plan to improve, everything they are saying that this is just a teething phase and they will speed up trains later is damage control and revisionist history.

AFAIK the TTC argued that speeding up trains would increase operating costs. Which is actually stupid. Operating costs would go down if fewer, faster trains covered the route, necessitating fewer operators.

Because TTC claims that if the ran the trains faster, they would need to consult Metrolinx and Mosaic because faster running trains would increase the operational and maintenance burden on Mosaic/Metrolinx

Finch West Line 6 LRT

Live updates: - The earliest Line 6 improvements can be implemented is at the end of the "soft opening" in "early spring" - TTC staff would need to consult with Mosaic and Metrolinx if it were to speed up the LRT because it would impact maintenance costs - In response to question from...

urbantoronto.ca

Even though, as Steve Munro points out, running the trains faster would actually require less service, not more

https://twitter.com/x/status/1998843375768789334

 

[Bordercollie]

AFAIK the TTC argued that speeding up trains would increase operating costs. Which is actually stupid. Operating costs would go down if fewer, faster trains covered the route, necessitating fewer operators.

More operating hours for ops.
More wear and tear because you complete trips faster you do more trips which means less spares and more maintenance on equipment and track.

And more consumption of power.

How much does that cost? Maybe 10-15%.

 

[urbanclient]

More operating hours for ops.
More wear and tear because you complete trips faster you do more trips which means less spares and more maintenance on equipment and track.

And more consumption of power.

How much does that cost? Maybe 10-15%.

I'm too lazy to type this:

*edit for wider screenshot

 

[Bordercollie]

I'm too lazy to type this:
View attachment 702238

So it's a no brainer

 

[afransen]

More operating hours for ops.
More wear and tear because you complete trips faster you do more trips which means less spares and more maintenance on equipment and track.

And more consumption of power.

How much does that cost? Maybe 10-15%.

If you need 10 vehicles to provide 10 minute frequency and 100 minute route time, then if you can do the same route in 80 minutes, you only need 8 vehicles, 8 operators, etc. to provide the same exact frequency and throughput. Each vehicle in operation travels more km per day, but there are fewer vehicle hours of operation. Higher speeds might mean more wheel wear, suspension wear, brakes, etc. but it is probably an overall savings I would think vs having more vehicles in operation.

 

[Bojaxs]

A lot of people really oversell how much of this project is elevated. It’s a small section, conveniently in Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park. I think many underestimate how much push back elevated will receive. I’m not saying it’s right. I would just like to warn people not to get their hopes up.

Yea the elevated sections of line 3 and 5 give me some hope but we are yet to see elevated rail near single family homes, which is where most of the pushback would come from. Its a whole other beast getting people on board in an environment like thisView attachment 702189
compared to this
View attachment 702190
doesnt help that a lot of people in Thorncliffe and Flemingdon park who may be opposed to the project dont speak fluent english or do not have the political power or no how to make their voices heard.

Are the elevated portions of Line 3 & 5 really elevated tracks? Or are they just bridges? All the elevated portions of these lines are going over rivers. It makes more sense to bridge over a river than to tunnel under it.

I'm assuming that the Thorncliffe station and tracks are elevated because the Don River straddles the area.

It wasn't like there was a concerted effort to choose elevated tracks over tunneling. It just made sense to elevate in these sections.

 

[afransen]

Are the elevated portions of Line 3 & 5 really elevated tracks? Or are they just bridges? All the elevated portions of these lines are going over rivers. It makes more sense to bridge over a river than to tunnel under it.

I'm assuming that the Thorncliffe station and tracks are elevated because the Don River straddles the area.

It wasn't like there was a concerted effort to choose elevated tracks over tunneling. It just made sense to elevate in these sections.

Line 3 is elevated north of the Don to Eglinton. It terminates elevated, suggesting the intent would be to extend it further as elevated.

Ontario Line - North Elevated Guideway and Stations

The North Elevated Guideway and Stations project is one of many contracts to deliver the Ontario Line, a 15.6-kilometre stand-alone rapid transit line that will connect the Ontario Science Centre to Exhibition/Ontario Place.

www.infrastructureontario.ca

 

[Bojaxs]

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

Because the politicians and planners who attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for these projects hold the very people, who will rely on these projects, in contempt. They just want your vote. Both left & right.

The fact that no effort was made to replicate "best practices" from other LRT systems around the world shows that this transit project was never about giving the residents of NW Toronto rapid transit. It was about creating jobs and giving millions to insiders who may or may not have started up a construction company around the same time these transit lines got announced. Corruption & political favours.

The Union for the TTC operators must be happy that they now have more union jobs. Shuttle buses continue to run throughout the day parallel with the LRTs. Don't be surprised as we approach the date to wind down the day time shuttle buses on Finch, the Union steps in and says we should maintain them.

Metrolinx lied through their teeth to the people of NW Toronto. promising "this" and promising "that". Meanwhile, behind closed doors they knew the Line wouldn't live up to the hype and did everything they could to keep people quiet. Because they operate as a secret society.

All in all, the "experts" and big wigs will get around to fixing the line.....eventually. In the mean time, deal with it!

As you guys can tell, I'm quite cynical at this point. Even though I've slagged on both Line 6 & 5 for years on this forum, I had hoped to be proven wrong. Unfortunately Line 6 ended up being everything I expected it to be.

EDIT: Look what Melbourne spent the last 10 years building while we spent that same time building a glorified streetcar that runs under the city and stops at traffic lights (Line 5).

 

[urbanclient]

Hushhh, we're not allowed to compare Toronto's pathetic transit buildout since 2002 to roughly equal sized cities—much less smaller, less dense cities, in similar sociopolitical environments like Sydney and Melbourne! The ghost of "mostest ambitious" will come haunt us again, just you see. GO Expansion [262 km descoped down to 100 km completed by 2040] is one of the most ambitious regional rail projects in the worldddddd Oh my gawd did you hear that?

Because the politicians and planners who attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for these projects hold the very people, who will rely on these projects, in contempt. They just want your vote. Both left & right.

The fact that no effort was made to replicate "best practices" from other LRT systems around the world shows that this transit project was never about giving the residents of NW Toronto rapid transit. It was about creating jobs and giving millions to insiders who may or may not have started up a construction company around the same time these transit lines got announced. Corruption & political favours.

The Union for the TTC operators must be happy that they now have more union jobs. Shuttle buses continue to run throughout the day parallel with the LRTs. Don't be surprised as we approach the date to wind down the day time shuttle buses on Finch, the Union steps in and says we should maintain them.

Metrolinx lied through their teeth to the people of NW Toronto. promising "this" and promising "that". Meanwhile, behind closed doors they knew the Line wouldn't live up to the hype and did everything they could to keep people quiet. Because they operate as a secret society.

All in all, the "experts" and big wigs will get around to fixing the line.....eventually. In the mean time, deal with it!

As you guys can tell, I'm quite cynical at this point. Even though I've slagged on both Line 6 & 5 for years on this forum, I had hoped to be proven wrong. Unfortunately Line 6 ended up being everything I expected it to be.

EDIT: Look what Melbourne spent the last 10 years building while we spent that same time building a glorified streetcar that runs under the city and stops at traffic lights (Line 5).

After being thoroughly talked down to last time... I could never. I only compare Toronto to more populous, denser cities now...

 

[ARG1]

Because the politicians and planners who attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for these projects hold the very people, who will rely on these projects, in contempt. They just want your vote. Both left & right.

The fact that no effort was made to replicate "best practices" from other LRT systems around the world shows that this transit project was never about giving the residents of NW Toronto rapid transit. It was about creating jobs and giving millions to insiders who may or may not have started up a construction company around the same time these transit lines got announced. Corruption & political favours.

The Union for the TTC operators must be happy that they now have more union jobs. Shuttle buses continue to run throughout the day parallel with the LRTs. Don't be surprised as we approach the date to wind down the day time shuttle buses on Finch, the Union steps in and says we should maintain them.

Metrolinx lied through their teeth to the people of NW Toronto. promising "this" and promising "that". Meanwhile, behind closed doors they knew the Line wouldn't live up to the hype and did everything they could to keep people quiet. Because they operate as a secret society.

All in all, the "experts" and big wigs will get around to fixing the line.....eventually. In the mean time, deal with it!

As you guys can tell, I'm quite cynical at this point. Even though I've slagged on both Line 6 & 5 for years on this forum, I had hoped to be proven wrong. Unfortunately Line 6 ended up being everything I expected it to be.

EDIT: Look what Melbourne spent the last 10 years building while we spent that same time building a glorified streetcar that runs under the city and stops at traffic lights (Line 5).

Ok all things considered, Melbourne is honestly a pretty bad example since at the end of the day, Metro Tunnel and Skyrail are the only projects they're really working on (everything else is deferred or in a weird limbo zone), and honestly while it is a big and important project its value proposition has been pretty terrible and is more of a capacity project than anything. As it stands right now Toronto/GTHA has a much more flashy and transformative suite of projects in the works than Melbourne.

That's not to say we're doing everything right, far from it, but a few fumbles and bad projects here and there doesn't really diminish what we're accomplishing overall. There's no reason to declare that the sky is falling and that we're doomed because Finch West was underwhelming, and we kicked DB out (which based off reports I keep getting from many sources really seems to have been overall a good decision).

 

[FW36]

In the short term to improve service, the Finch West LRT should be given priority when approaching intersections, operated at a higher speed, and reduced dwelling times at stations.

In the meduim term I think Toronto needs to remove some stations. There are honestly to many stops for a 10.3 km line. I would remove Stevenson, Duncanwoods, and Driftwood. Stations would still be about 735 meters apart. That would be a 8- 10 minute walk between station, still reasonably for local trips.

In long term Finch West LRT should be integrated with a future Bolton GO train line and expanded south towards the new Woodbine GO station.

Long term the LRT can be a great and efficient train for local community and used as a feeder line for regional rail. Individuals that need to get to downtown or another part of the city fast can take the LRT to higher order transit more efficiently.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although incompetence runs deep at the TTC, there is no way around the fact that ultimately, this is the City's responsibility.

In it's simplest form, TTC is just an organization that runs vehicles and nothing more. As long as those vehicles run on roadways they must follow the rules dictated to them by the City Transportation Dept. They can't make up the rules as they go along. It is the City that determines their budget and hence where they provide service and how frequently. It is the City that sets the rules of the road the buses/streetcars/LRT must follow.

The TTC drivers are overwhelmingly helpful, hard working, and want to serve the public in the best way. They are probably more frustrated then even the passengers about the speed of the system. When they get caught in traffic or sit at lights because one person wants to make a left,, it puts them behind schedule and infuriates the passengers and it is the drivers who are the first to hear about it. They want to provide a quality service and take pride in their work for the public but it is the City that inhibits them. I'm sure the TTC Board gets a lot of flack from the workers but even if the TTC wants all those suggested measures put into place, it doesn't matter if the City says no.

Personally, I bet the TTC, and especially the workers, are happy that Finch has turned into such a fiasco. It has finally forced the hand of the City to enter the 21st century and give the streetcars/LRT the complete priority they deserve. Before it may have been too difficult with some crying the old "war on cars" theme not helped by the fact that Chow is a gutless wonder. Now the heat is on and, very importantly, from QP to get these vehicles moving and the rank & file TTC workers are going to be the first to celebrate.

 

[urbanclient]

Ok all things considered, Melbourne is honestly a pretty bad example since at the end of the day, Metro Tunnel and Skyrail are the only projects they're really working on (everything else is deferred or in a weird limbo zone), and honestly while it is a big and important project its value proposition has been pretty terrible and is more of a capacity project than anything. As it stands right now Toronto/GTHA has a much more flashy and transformative suite of projects in the works than Melbourne.

That's not to say we're doing everything right, far from it, but a few fumbles and bad projects here and there doesn't really diminish what we're accomplishing overall. There's no reason to declare that the sky is falling and that we're doomed because Finch West was underwhelming, and we kicked DB out (which based off reports I keep getting from many sources really seems to have been overall a good decision).

You're forgetting the Surburban Rail Loop* which is supposed to give them 41 km of automated PSD regional metro by 2035 (basically their 407 electrified rail), around the same time we'll get Line 5 west, Line 2 extension, Ontario line, and maybe Line 1 extension, in descending order of likeliness. Their 41 km SRL is at least similar in length to our 40.6 km rapid transit expansion. It's also worthwhile to consider that Melbourne has higher rail ridership per capita than Toronto. It gets 180 million per year on its RER style "Metro Trains", which put GO rail transit to shame with 400 km of routes, and another 160 million on its trams. All for a city that is only 5.4 million over ~10,000 sqkm versus GTHA at 8.3 million over 8,200 sqkm. Toronto is far behind Melbourne in terms of rail transit today. Even if Melbourne's rail systems are quite unique, they are nonetheless very impressive.

Sydney is slightly larger at 5.56 million, and it also has had much better rail transit than Toronto historically. Sydney Trains has 6 true RER routes with 3 to 15 minute frequencies for a 360 km network; plus 3 less frequent routes for 9 lines, 270 million annual ridership. As for expansion, Sydney is slated to get 113 km of fully automated, platform screen door metro by 2032-2033, likely earlier than when we're getting the Ontario Line and certainly before the Line 1 extension. It currently has 52 out of 113 km built. In the same length of time it might take us to get 100 km of the existing Lakeshore lines electrified, Sydney is getting 113 km of automated heavy metro to serve partially as regional rail. That is not to mention 700+ km of intercity rail in Sydney which has GO transit-like frequencies.

We are easily 30-40 years behind Australia's two biggest cities, even though we were historically more wealthy, as well as more populous and more densely populated. Now we're just more populous and more dense. Geee I wonder if having better transit leads to better socioeconomic outcomes? Oh and Australia is about as car-brained as it gets; even more car-brained than Canada. It's just that the Aussies obviously figured out that loving cars and loving transit aren't mutually exclusive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_motor_vehicles_per_capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburban_Rail_Loop

*The halt for SRL is only "if [Jess Wilson] becomes Premier at the 2026 election." "As of September 2025, the construction of six SRL East stations is still underway, with tunnel boring machines to arrive and start digging in early 2026." Federal support for SRL from governing Labor appears to be strong. Even subtracting 41 km of future metro, Melbourne is still in a better position today than Toronto in terms of rail transit. Sydney's future expansion appears more concrete and just blows Toronto out of the water from an already winning position.

 

[wheelloader]

While a lot of thread focus on speed, some of my observations relates to the fare box, I drive along line 6 from Finch West to Albion every day and usually 3-4 times I would see riders walking in to the platform area while I was waiting for the green light. Sadly more than half of the time, I saw people simply walking by the presto stall without tapping. I am not sure if TTC will get their expected revenue from line 6 operation.