[robmausser]

Waterfront LRT and Eglinton East LRT are still to come.
My preference is that both should be BRT however.

Waterfront East.

Waterfront West should be LRT because 70% of it is already finished. Its more about connecting the Queensway ROW to Exhibition.

 

[robmausser]

(Double reply, evil i know)

I really gotta emphasize that the 6 FW is literally just a prettified 512/510/509. There's nothing really interesting to it. The only thing that really changes infra-wise is the double point switches, no turnback loops, and standard gauge. The rest is fluff. Off-board payment, level boarding, nicer signage... And unsurprisingly, the 6 performs on par, speed wise, as the 512/510/509, because that's it. That's the only changes.

But due to its LIGHT RAIL designation, 6 FW was mentally put on a higher standard than the rest. It was supposed to be faster. The 512/510/509 is slow due to infra and switches or whatever, or the 1000 other reasons the TTC trots out. The 6 FW was supposed to fix all the infra problems- which they did- and when all the infra problems were solved, it revealed that it was just the TTC being horrible at operations.

Left alone, the TTC has only made the streetcars slower on dedicated ROW routes. Left alone, the 6 FW will only get slower. The public, province, MX, and city need to kick TTC into high gear. Other agencies would operate this exact same line at 20+kmh avg, as has been shown in this thread.

Ill go one better. I think this is proof the transit system needs to be uploaded to the province and the TTC disbanded. They've proven they are unable to do their job.

 

[robmausser]

Our streetcars have some of the dumbest spacing, with some stops being being about five or six 30m streetcar lengths apart. I suppose the LRTs would be no different.

I will give it that the TTC tried to remove about 70 stops on the network 10 years ago and every councilor in that area where they wanted to remove them protested and complained. So only like 20 got removed, if that.

 

[robmausser]

He was so right

The thing is, everything we have gotten in Toronto so far isnt even true LRT. Its streetcars with some better features. Our own streetcar network made us fail at building LRT, because we just modelled them after that. Even LA has proper LRTs that run on the side of the road, not the middle, with full transit priority and crossing arms like a train that physically stop traffic, and the train zooms by at 70kmh.

Finch and Eglinton aren't LRT, they are glorified streetcars in a ROW. And the TTC is driving them as such.

 

[Bordercollie]

Despite the same width and vehicle, the Parisian trains look much better. I mentioned in the Hurontario thread already that the Citadis vehicles feel like a downgrade on the Bombardier Flexity Freedom vehicles.

Which I don't think will help the reputation of the Finch line as rapid transit when the downtown streetcar lines are also operating nicer vehicles (at similar operation speeds...).

Who cares what it looks like when you can't even get it to work.

Also they knew it was going to snow this morning and they didn't manually clean the switches before service started. Come on. Nobody took a truck and drove the line with a broom to see if the switches are clear?

 

[APTA-2048]

Ill go one better. I think this is proof the transit system needs to be uploaded to the province and the TTC disbanded. They've proven they are unable to do their job.

That is a terrible idea and SEPTA is proof of that.

 

[afransen]

Some grace is a fair ask; but there is no level of grace available that excuses the abysmal performance here.

People are right to be angry at 4 years late, significantly over budget and a run time slower than the bus its replacing.

That's preposterous, not teething issues.

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

 

[Bordercollie]

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

But now these incompetent people get to look like heros.

 

[urbanclient]

Ok, but what about RATP vs. IDF Mobilites in Paris? Metrolinx is basically our equivalent of IDF Mobilites because Mx only serves the Golden Horseshoe, which is larger than the GTHA. The Horseshoe is about the size of the Paris metropolitan region, which in turn is larger than Ile de France.

Metrolinx is a provincial agency, but it isn't involved in any local transit lines outside the GTHA. Also a reminder, Ontario is larger in area than Metropolitan France and European Spain combined. So functionally, geographically, Metrolinx is IDF, and I don't see that people fervently like RATP over IDF in Paris. RATP's monopoly over transit operations was dismantled by law. Now IDF coordinates the region as RATP is forced to compete with private contractors for operating contracts (e.g. T9 tram).

I'm on the fence about this, I see TTC and Metrolinx as both being wracked with politicking and management lacking technical expertise. That and mind boggling levels of fresh out of business/engineering school incompetence.

 

[Northern Light]

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

I agree with you here, and didn't mean to convey that grace was due to those who have failed so badly here; as the subsequent clause in my statement suggests.

I meant, in general, grace is a reasonable ask, and then went on to suggest, that that really doesn't apply here.

****

But now these incompetent people get to look like heros.

I don't think so. I think IF (big if ) the Mayor is able to drive structural change, not just in the way Finch operates, but all the streetcars and to a lesser, but real degree, the bus system too, then she will get plaudits, since no Mayor has managed to tame that beast to date.

But the actual people in the consortium at Mx and TTC will not come out of this smelling likes roses any which way, nor will uncooperated people in Transportation services who have consistently fought restrictions on left turns, and true transit priority.

Michael Lindsay and Mandeep Lali will get a marginal reprieve, because they are relatively new to their post; though Lindsay is elbows deep in this mess from his days at Infrastructure Ontario.....but any reprieve will only come if Finch if fixed and Eglinton does not have the same problems on launch.

 

[APTA-2048]

Ok, but what about RATP vs. IDF Mobilites in Paris? Metrolinx is basically our equivalent of IDF Mobilites because Mx only serves the Golden Horseshoe, which is larger than the GTHA. The Horseshoe is about the size of the Paris metropolitan region, which in turn is larger than Ile de France.

Metrolinx is a provincial agency, but it isn't involved in any local transit lines outside the GTHA. Also a reminder, Ontario is larger in area than Metropolitan France and European Spain combined. So functionally, geographically, Metrolinx is IDF, and I don't see that people fervently like RATP over IDF in Paris. RATP's monopoly over transit operations was dismantled by law. Now IDF coordinates the region as RATP is forced to compete with private contractors for operating contracts (e.g. T9 tram).

I'm on the fence about this, I see TTC and Metrolinx as both being wracked with politicking and management lacking technical expertise. That and mind boggling levels of fresh out of business/engineering school incompetence.

Is it really the same though? What are the politics involved with IDF Mobilities? How much say does each municipality have over funding and allocation of resources?

If Metrolinx controls the TTC, you think the Province wouldn’t want to micromanage every aspect of it? You want an agency that is influenced by more voters outside of the city to do that? If you think the TTC is underfunded now…

Hence my comparison with SEPTA.

Additional point: having competing private contractors has become a race to the bottom in York Region.

 

[Northern Light]

Ill go one better. I think this is proof the transit system needs to be uploaded to the province and the TTC disbanded. They've proven they are unable to do their job.

The TTC is problem-plagued, there's no arguing the point, I wouildn't dream of it.

That said, Metrolinx are no better. Sure GO Trains are broadly more reliable, but off-peak service, where it exists, is mostly hourly outside of Lakeshore, and then only 30 minutes.

Mx contracts most operations and maintenance to third parties, meaning the bulk of its management team have limited knowledge in how to build or operate things.

Mx has also been the home of countless capital project boondoggles, including this one.

Meanwhile, if you did 'abolish' the TTC, the reality on the ground is that it would just be a name change and a new top boss.

The organization is 17,000 people, with far more subject matter experts and vast amounts of work done in house. Some of it, not as well as it ought to be; but then again, the TTC has moved to bring vehicle cleaning back in house
as the private sector was no great shakes at that either.

The TTC (and Mx) need substantial reforms. But I wouldn't get tied up with a giant re-org/re-naming that will really leave all same problems, just an even bigger bureaucratic morass.

Functionally any Mx takeover of the TTC would simply be a reverse-take over, where the TTC swamps Mx.

You'd just be paying to move Mx Staff into Davisville or find the combined office a new HQ as Union certainly would not serve purpose.

 

[robmausser]

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

Even an announcement on opening day

"hey, we are still testing things and speeds will increase"

but the thing is, thats not what this is. The TTC is actually PROUD of this launch and this line. They thought this was OK. There was no mandate to improve schedules, and in fact they argued at the town hall the other night that speeding up trains would mean they are ahead of schedule. So they were perfectly fine with the line taking 47 minutes from end to end.

There was no plan to improve, everything they are saying that this is just a teething phase and they will speed up trains later is damage control and revisionist history.

 

[KhalilHeron]

I will give it that the TTC tried to remove about 70 stops on the network 10 years ago and every councilor in that area where they wanted to remove them protested and complained. So only like 20 got removed, if that.

Yea Policy is for the TTC to try and remove stops that are too close together whenever the opportunity comes up but councillors have to be notified each time and almost every time they block the removal. If the political will is finally here, the TTC will be glad to get rid of plenty more.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The thing is, everything we have gotten in Toronto so far isnt even true LRT.

In Toronto, LRT is light rail transit, not light rapid transit.