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Because the White House just announced that dumbed down versions of the F-47 would be available to allies.

Trump saying random stuff doesn't constitute policy. Let alone decades from now when he's out of office.

The Brits won’t want it if they have their Tempest, the Japanese their Mitsubishi F-X, and the EU their FCAS. Plus there’s the multinational GCAP.

The British Tempest and Japanese F-X program were merged. That program is GCAP.

the successor to the RCAF’s F-35s, likely in the 2050s.

If we had any sense, we'd learn from the situation we're now in and not wait till the 2050s.

There's a reason you see the UK, Japan, Italy, France, Germany and Spain starting their programs now to deliver in 10-15 years. It's not just the threat (in Japan's case). It's to maintain their ability to design and manufacture combat aircraft. It's to allow time for developmental delays and allow a transition without gaps.

We have to accept some F-35s because obsolescence has to put us in that position. But we should be getting ~40 Rafales or Typhoons as well, as a second fleet. And then we should be joining FCAS or GCAP to start our own 6th gen transition in 2045. All while building industrial ties to Europe and Asia.
 
Just waiting for someone to suggest reviving the Avro Arrow program....
We jest, but there are elements of the Arrow program that could apply today. Avro Canada was a wholly-owned subsidiary of Britain’s Hawker-Siddeley, now part of BAE Systems, which still operates in Canada today as BAE Systems Canada. The Arrow design team was led by Britain’s James Floyd, shipped over from Hawker-Siddeley at the end of WW2. With all this in mind, Canada could join the BAe Tempest program, assemble the RCAF units here and call it the Arrow II.
 
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I get the sentiment - but that was what, more than half a century ago. Why would *anyone* revive a plane that practically belongs to the museum and is primitive (and I don't mean it pejoratively - but relative to the reality of today) in every way? Besides, I don't think we have the continuity required for this kind of a task.

AoD
Practically?
 
I don't think people really understand what 6th generation air combat will look like. Here's a 20 min primer to understand:


If we buy Rafales or Typhoons or Gripens and are still flying them in the late 2030s and beyond, y'all need to understand the macro trends and risks. From the proliferation of very long range (≥ 200 km) missiles to the proliferation of large numbers of 5th gen. To the risk that the Russians simply buy Chinese 5th Gen and start using those in the Arctic. A big motivation for British 6th gen is the risk of the Russians doing this in Europe. The idea that we have the luxury of our geography is ignorant in this century.
 
Like what?
Not the aircraft itself obviously, but we could rekindle Canada’s now mostly defunct military aircraft design and production sector through mirroring the Avro Canada connection with Hawker Siddeley. Now, I know your kneejerk reply is to be contrarian, but it needn’t be.
 
France steps up: Rafale jets offered to Canada, Portugal: LINK

This is a good short-term option for Canada. I read that the Rafale was previously rejected because of its lack of interoperability with American fighter jets. Until recently (about 5 months ago) interoperability was considered for obvious reasons to be of paramount importance for NORAD. In this new unreal world that we suddenly find ourselves thrust into interoperability with fighter jets from a country that has all but declared Canada an enemy is no longer a consideration in fact Canada needs to exit NORAD a defense pact that has always primarily benefited the defense of the United States. I don't think wiping Canada off the map has ever been a big priority for the Russians or before them the Soviets.

For 66 years Canada has contributed immensely to the air defense of the United States acting as a ~2500-mile buffer between the United States and the perceived greatest threat to the United States Russia and the former Soviet Union. Currently 40% of funding for NORAD comes Canada despite the fact that the United States is the primary beneficiary of NORAD and is 10X the size of Canada. For this Canada receives no recognition or gratitude from the current occupant of the White House who says "we pay to defend Canada". Name one country that has done more for the defense of the United States than Canada? I can't think of any. Just by our geographic location Canada is by default America's greatest ally. How would the American's feel about the perceived threat from Russia being moved 2500 miles south from the Canadian arctic to the Canadian/American border? How would the American's feel if they lost all early warning detection from radar stations in Canada's north? What would be the implications for Russia's first-strike capabilities if that happened? A war is being fought in Ukraine over similar geographic considerations.

Long term I think Canada should look to partner with a friendly nation to develop and build a sixth-generation stealth fighter containing the least number of American components as possible. Preferably ZERO American content if it is determined that we need such a manned aircraft in the future which I am not convinced of. Unmanned automatous AI powered hypersonic drones will make manned fighter jets obsolete someday soon.

With regards to the new Canadian Destroyer program referenced above in this thread Canada needs to go back to the drawing board. We need to build a destroyer with European "kit" not American. This is non-negotiable although in the age of "Carrier-killer" hypersonic missiles from Russia, China and even Iran and Yemen are surface naval vessels obsolete? Should we instead be putting our money into submarines?

Mark Carney said in a speech the other day that 90 cents of every Canadian defense procurement dollar goes to the United States. This has to stop IMMEDIATELY! We don't need the United States. What we cannot make ourselves we can buy from friendly nations, and I would go even further and say I would prefer Canada buy military equipment from the Russians or Chinese than from the Americans. Canada could sure use a bunch of Russian S-400/500 air defense systems right now!

Thinking long term, I believe that France is probably Canada's best bet as defense partner. The Brits are too much in the American camp (perhaps that will change after April 2nd). Perhaps France can sell us some nuclear-powered submarines that the Australians stupidly cancelled that we could equip with nuclear missiles since without nukes no country is safe from American aggression. The United States has suddenly turned into a predator nation in search of weak nations to bully and finally acquire. Canadians need to wake up to this new regrettable reality.
You keep repeating the same nonsense despite having been put in your place. You're clearly just a troll.
 
Not the aircraft itself obviously, but we could rekindle Canada’s now mostly defunct military aircraft design and production sector through mirroring the Avro Canada connection with Hawker Siddeley. Now, I know your kneejerk reply is to be contrarian, but it needn’t be.
It's not contrarian. That's exactly why I say we should join GCAP or FCAS and buy a transition fleet now. This is the equivalent. Nobody but the US and China are building sixth gen alone. The Brits basically gave up building combat aircraft alone after the 70s. They moved to a consortium. The French and the Swedes are also realizing that going it alone is not feasible for fifth and sixth gen. So for us, to startup any kind of design and production capability again, it will have to be part of these consortia.

I have a preference for FCAS. But I am open to GCAP.

You keep repeating the same nonsense despite having been put in your place. You're clearly just a troll.

To be fair, we got new material when they said we should buy Russian or Chinese kit.

In any event, these days I get what virologists must have felt like during the early days of Covid. My quarter century in the air force, with specific qualifications on air weapons and space vs some dude who just learned the difference between a Gripen and Panther last week.
 
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Considering we don't have any real articles left other than scale models and scattered components.

AoD
I get it. I was just amused at the wording, that 'practically' means 'almost' ('this shirt is practically new'), so it almost belongs in a museum.

That was my generation's parents era. With the 14000-odd actually at A V Roe and another 15K or so in the supply chain, it's hard to not run into somebody who's parent, uncle, etc. either worked there or was directly impacted. My dad was there as a federal government employee and nailed some in-flight photos (along with a few machinist's tools and, somehow, a very heavy oak office desk with an A V Roe inventory plaque on it). I've randomly run into people with the odd flight instrument or some other bit. Technical drawings exist. For something where everything was supposedly destroyed, I swear if someone could somehow gather all the bits and pieces lying around in drawers and rec rooms, they could damned near built one.
 
You keep repeating the same nonsense despite having been put in your place. You're clearly just a troll.
If you do not agree with my opinions why not debate me on the issues? Dismissing me as a "troll" is just lazy and there is no place for that in a robust discussion forum.
 
If you do not agree with my opinions why not debate me on the issues? Dismissing me as a "troll" is just lazy and there is no place for that in a robust discussion forum.

There's no debate to be had with somebody ignorant of the issues and who is not persuadable on the facts or even open to learning.

This is my resume. What's your experience with the topic at hand?

quarter century in the air force, with specific qualifications on air weapons and space
 
With all this in mind, Canada could join the BAe Tempest program,

Carney's platform released yesterday proposes a reduction in F-35 orders and joining one of the 6th gen programs.

I am 50/50 on this because the lack of a bridge fleet (Rafales or Typhoons) could leave us quite vulnerable. But maybe that's too much detail for a political platform.

In general with these things, I always wonder about their omissions more than their commissions.
 

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