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Finally competitive democracy at the federal level. Who says our parliamentary electoral system does'nt work. Well done Canada, we can truly call ourselves a democracy than an autocracy. Regarding the urban agenda, Harper promised to keep the gas tax deal in place. Provide tax incenrtives for public transit use and affordable housing, but I think thats all folks. The Conservatives have already listed their five main priorities, and Canadians can expect them to want to move quickly on those.
Harper listed them as:
- clean up government with a federal accountability act
- reduce taxes, starting with a GST cut
- crack down on crime
- establish guaranteed wait times
- provide child care money directly to parents

If Harper can deliver on these, a few more seats will come their way next time.
 
I think this is a great result.
Now we truly have a watch dog system again. Love or hate the NDP, they are not at the level of Lib/Conserv.
NDP is completely powerless.

Bloc, despite losing seats, has gained swing vote status if the conservatives are unable to work with the Liberals.

The only way that the NDP can make a difference is if the Conservatives give the speakers seat to a Liberal AND they get the Libertarian Independent (André Arthur in Quebec) to vote with the NDP -- not too likely to either of those.

Keeping in mind that there will probably be a conservative speaker and that the speaker only votes in the event of a tie, we have:

Conservatives + Bloc > Liberals + NDP + Independent
Conservatives + Liberals > Bloc + NDP + Independent
Liberals + Bloc > Conservatives + NDP + Indepenent (154 vs 153)

In the event that the Conservaties do appoint a liberal speaker:
Liberals + Bloc < Conservatives + NDP + Indepenent

I really doubt the independent will ever side with NDP and be against the Bloc vote.
 
Why would you waste your time voting Green? You know they have absolutely no chance of winning or changing anything. You might as well vote for a party that has a chance to win or not vote at all.
Do you know anything about voting? We're not playing Pro-Line here. I voted Green and will continue to do so because neither the Liberals nor Conservatives represent my views even marginally. 4.5 % of Canadians voted the same way I did and this minority, if consistent, will not be able to be ignored 10 years from now.
 
Harper listed them as:
- clean up government with a federal accountability act
- reduce taxes, starting with a GST cut
- crack down on crime
- establish guaranteed wait times
- provide child care money directly to parents

There is one thing missing from that list and that is provincial autonomy/fiscal imbalance. The Conservatives made strong gains in Quebec at the expense of the Bloc on the platform of addressing the issues of autonomy that Quebec has been raising for years (decades). If Harper does not deliver on these promises or only addresses autonomy/fiscal imbalance as it pertains to the west, well, next election will be very interesting.
 
Do you know anything about voting? We're not playing Pro-Line here. I voted Green and will continue to do so because neither the Liberals nor Conservatives represent my views even marginally. 4.5 % of Canadians voted the same way I did and this minority, if consistent, will not be able to be ignored 10 years from now.

mislav, didn't you know?

canadian troops fought in wars so you have the ability to vote. but you're only allowed to vote for 2 parties. apparently they didn't fight hard enough which is why you aren't allowed to vote green - according to some.
 
We have desperately needed a real alternative for several years now, and I for one am glad to see it developing.

We had an alternative... there was more alternatives before than now (i.e. PC, Alliance, Liberals, NDP, Green). I think democracy is better served by more parties with a different mix of ideas more than some see-saw between two parties. I would prefer fixed election dates and no majority governments because the system is more policy driven and has more checks and balances. A strong Conservative party means we are going to continue going back and forth between parties and policy will take a back seat to punishing.

I would really like to know how Harper can deliver on his priorities.

- clean up government with a federal accountability act [No problem]
- reduce taxes, starting with a GST cut [Bloc might support the GST cut but none will support the income tax increase and it will look bad for the Conservatives to be fighting to raise taxes on the lowest income tax bracket]
- crack down on crime [they will get support for anything they suggest but likely wont reduce crime without addressing the factors leading to crime... they will have failed in their mandate if crime is still a factor at the next election and without social funding it probably will be]
- establish guaranteed wait times [didn't the Liberals sign that deal already? what's new that the Conservatives are going to do]
- provide child care money directly to parents [maybe they will get support for tax credits but not on cancelling day care that has already started]

Add it up and if the Conservatives deliver they will have a deficit because the other parties won't let him make the cuts to pay for it.
 
canadian troops fought in wars so you have the ability to vote. but you're only allowed to vote for 2 parties. apparently they didn't fight hard enough which is why you aren't allowed to vote green - according to some.

Damn straight. In our daily political briefings, the commisar kept us right up to date on our orders:

"Comrade submariners, we must drive the Evil Hordes back, but not back so far the workers can vote Green."

;)

Kevin
 
canadian troops fought in wars so you have the ability to vote. but you're only allowed to vote for 2 parties. apparently they didn't fight hard enough which is why you aren't allowed to vote green - according to some.
:rollin
 
Damn straight. In our daily political briefings, the commisar kept us right up to date on our orders:

"Comrade submariners, we must drive the Evil Hordes back, but not back so far the workers can vote Green."


:rollin :rollin
 
Enviro,

You may have noted that I used the word "broad." I was not suggesting that there is zero to the Green Party's ideas concerning health and environment. For example, how many cancers are simply genetic, as in being plain unlucky to have the genetics that work against you? Nobody really knows. Does the Green party know for certain that all cancers are caused by degradations to the environment? Degradations to what degree?

My point is that for a party that puts the environment and health front and centre, there is not much clarity concerning the certainty of many of their assertions with respect to these concepts.

Unless one is making the accepts that the human race is meant to degrade and become more sick over time then it seems obvious that the alternative idea is that what we are eating, drinking, breathing, and doing is what is causing trends towards a sicker population. The environment obviously plays into the eating, drinking, and breathing part of the equation and the Green policy to encourage greater emphasis on physical fitness plugs into the "doing" part of the equation. With studies now starting to show that water quality is causing fish to be almost dangerous to eat because of the toxins in their bodies and cows getting diseases caused by cows eating feed containing beef byproducts there is cause for concern. We shouldn't do what is unnatural to animals, our bodies, and the environment until science tells us there is something wrong... we should be taking the opposite approach by looking at what is most natural and only do otherwise if it is proven safe.

I'm not too sure by what you mean, but in fact all individual human beings get sicker over time and eventually die. That is quite natural. What is "un-natural" is that as a group we are actually living longer and healthier lives. We are now, in terms of numbers, the most plentiful large mammal on the planet. Over the last seventy years we, as a species, have actually done some quite "un-natural" things that have extended life, such as eliminating cancer from bodies, innoculating against numerous diseases, creating effective drug therapies to extend life where there otherwise would have been death. Genetic breakdown, infection, disease and death are all "natural" occurences. What we do to stave them off is often contrary to what some people have called "the natural order of things."

As for the idea of not doing things unnatural to animals and our bodies, well, too late. We can't turn cows, pigs, bananas, tomatoes, domesticated dogs, numerous bacteria and so on back into their natural, earlier forms. As a species, we can't do well by giving up that unnatural act of agriculture. But we can do some more things to make it less damaging to the environment. That will take knowledge, and will potentially have people doing more unnatural things in the process.

The Green Party has not cornered the issue of pollution for itself. The idea that they sell themselves as the only party that will do something about pollution and health is a bit rich in my opinion. Simply put, if one does not understand the causes and complexity of processes in the environment, then one is doomed to fail at dealing with them. So what I am saying is that while the Greens are big on promises, they are quite weak on specifics in numerous instances. That is not saying that environmental degradation is not a serious issue; it is suggesting that the Green party has too many platitudes in its platform, and not enough verifiable data to back up many of their claims. But in politics, they are not alone in this. It is their Adamistic "back to nature and we shall return to eden" attitude that I find so patently unrealistic (quotes are mine for emphasis).

The understanding of the environment should be pursued with a deliberate and impartial approach. I am concerned that politicizing it with an aim to accessing power will only obscure and potentially polarize attitudes to what should be considered as serious issues. Sadly, this is what is happening to much of the Greenhous/global warming/climate change debate. Politics is gradually snowing the science just as much more concerted research is required in order to understand a fabulously complex phenomenon.

Personally, I find the dichotomy between natural and "un-natural" (as in human made) an unrealistic one. We are part of the global environment, we and what we do are all "natural" and a product of our evolution and the on-going evolution of this planet. We have brains, the capacity to learn and to adapt, and depending on what we do and on what the world throws at us, we could continue to quite well on earth, and quite well for the earth.

Sorry about the longish post everyone.
 
However the amount of support the greens got worries me, every year I hope for a break through, and every year it doesn't come. Jim Harris should run in a riding with less opposion as he is their highest profile candidate.

Thom Chapman in Trinity-Spadina looked like a frightened little child in each and every debate. Having inadequate candidates in key ridings like this one is unforgiveable. Trinity-Spadina is by far one of the ridings with the most potential for that party due to its population visibley ridden with Green halmarks. Queen West, the Waterfront, the Island .... Green Green Green.

I proudly voted for Olivia Chow. She finally kicked out the hypocritc Tony Ianno who comfortably has laughed from his high horse at other candidates for so many years. Finally this may be the death of the Toronto Port Authority.
 
I'm happy enough. Martin's toast, the two Tonys (Ianno and Valeri) are gone
Yet two-tier Tony is back! :(

milhouse_kindergarten.gif
 
I'm not too sure by what you mean, but in fact all individual human beings get sicker over time and eventually die.

I'm talking about the human race, not human individuals as in increasing rates of athsma, more allergies, more vision defects, etc.

As a species, we can't do well by giving up that unnatural act of agriculture.

I'm not talking about argiculture... I'm talking about using unnatural feed for animals, using chemicals to grow plants, and chemicals to kill pests. We use these things without knowing how the whole cow works or how the environment will handle the chemicals and without knowing how to get the chemicals out of the environment after using them. We allow the use of chemicals with the assumption the environment will dilute the chemicals to an "acceptable" level without knowing what an acceptable level is for an unnatural chemical and how that chemical impacts the environment over time and how it builds up over time.

The Green Party has not cornered the issue of pollution for itself. The idea that they sell themselves as the only party that will do something about pollution and health is a bit rich in my opinion.

The Green Party doesn't sell themselves as the only party with an environmental plan. The Sierra Club ranked the parties and the Green came out on top with the NDP a close second. But the Green party goes further to require sustainability in all that the government supports.

Simply put, if one does not understand the causes and complexity of processes in the environment, then one is doomed to fail at dealing with them.

Yet without any real understanding of how the human body works on a detailed chemical level pharmacy companies release drugs on the market with only a short testing period using a few test subjects. The science is nowhere near being able to simulate the effect of a chemical on the human body yet it is quite acceptable to do trial and error drug testing for short test periods. Why is it acceptable to deal with ailments of the body and to prescribe solutions without that full understanding but it is jumping the gun to stop a negative trend in the environment?

That is not saying that environmental degradation is not a serious issue; it is suggesting that the Green party has too many platitudes in its platform, and not enough verifiable data to back up many of their claims.

Claims of what? Give an example.

It is their Adamistic "back to nature and we shall return to eden" attitude that I find so patently unrealistic (quotes are mine for emphasis).

I missed the Green policy that says we will be living the life of Little House on the Prairie. The Green policy is about damaging the environment with unnatural chemicals, not damaging the environment by having technology. The Green party is not looking for us to become farming Mennonites.

Personally, I find the dichotomy between natural and "un-natural" (as in human made) an unrealistic one. We are part of the global environment, we and what we do are all "natural" and a product of our evolution and the on-going evolution of this planet. We have brains, the capacity to learn and to adapt, and depending on what we do and on what the world throws at us, we could continue to quite well on earth, and quite well for the earth.

There is nothing wrong with things being man made. The issue is that we allow ourselves to make man made chemicals without the full understanding of the environment and find it acceptable, but for some it seems a solution isn't necessary until the environment is understood. Shouldn't the onus of proof be on the people who do unnatural things to the environment to prove that the environment isn't damaged by their actions rather than putting the onus on the environment and wildlife which has no human brain and has no voice? I'm less concerned about humanity and more concerned about the planet and the other lifeforms on it. Humanity does have the ability to adapt... even if the whole planet is devoid of natural life and we are stuck wearing breathing apparatuses when going outside humanity and the economy will survive... but the environment should be a little more than the place that humanity plays in and dumps waste into.

Sustainability is the key and sustainability means you could continue at the same levels forever. Man made is fine if it can be proven sustainable and is contained. The Green party isn't against TV sets, technology, and all the other luxuries... it cares that what we are doing is contained and not damaging the environment and that it is sustainable.

The understanding of the environment should be pursued with a deliberate and impartial approach. I am concerned that politicizing it with an aim to accessing power will only obscure and potentially polarize attitudes to what should be considered as serious issues.

If the goal was a rush to political power people could easily pick a better place to get it than running as a Green Party candidate. It is far more likely that mainstream parties with an environmental agenda are using it as a marketing initiative than the Green parties. Most Greens tend to practise what they preach while other Environment Ministers and Environmental Critics are driving around in SUVs.

Sadly, this is what is happening to much of the Greenhous/global warming/climate change debate. Politics is gradually snowing the science just as much more concerted research is required in order to understand a fabulously complex phenomenon.

The processes which naturally create O2 and CO2 are known. It is also known that the ability to create O2 from CO2 is decreasing while the creating of CO2 is increasing as a result of the actions of man. People can dance around what the impacts will be and whether or not there are signs of damage but one cannot dance around the fact that the earths ability to create O2 is decreasing while the creation of CO2 is increasing. Who cares about all the factors that cause the thermometer to go up and down? Past temperature fluctuations might have had more to do with meteors and volcanic activity. Why wait for conclusive proof there is global warming when we know we are creating an O2 creation and CO2 creation imbalance? We know when we close the garage door and turn on the car in the garage we will die. Multiply that by the population of the earth, reduce the earths ability to balance that change, and there is a problem.
 
one issue i hope the GPC takes up in the future is fluoridation
of the water supply.
 
dan e:

Let's not go into Dr. Strangelove and "sacred bodily fluids" :lol

AoD
 

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