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You may want to count the number of ICE stops in cities like Munich, Frankfurt, Dresden, Cologne, Basel and especially Berlin or Hamburg:
View attachment 661296

Here a fairly typical example with 3 stops each in Hamburg and Berlin:
View attachment 661343

lol, I think it's a meme that DB is always delayed?
 
Indeed, but Canadians are really the last demographic which should feel entitled to laugh… :p
Like how people here shouldn't look down at countries with 300km/h HSR as backwaters...

My original post wasn't even implying that we need multiple Toronto stops on the one (1) HSR line - I was saying that the one Toronto stop shouldn't be Union. Some of these backwaters have different HSR stations in the same city depending on which direction the HSR line is going, which is something so beyond the realm here that we're at least thirty years behind.
 
Like how people here shouldn't look down at countries with 300km/h HSR as backwaters...

My original post wasn't even implying that we need multiple Toronto stops on the one (1) HSR line - I was saying that the one Toronto stop shouldn't be Union. Some of these backwaters have different HSR stations in the same city depending on which direction the HSR line is going, which is something so beyond the realm here that we're at least thirty years behind.
If the primary Toronto stop is not, at the very least, connected to PATH, we are throwing billions out the window. Union Station is so well-connected and centrally located that not stopping Alto at or very close to it will discourage so many trips that could otherwise be made.
 
If the primary Toronto stop is not, at the very least, connected to PATH, we are throwing billions out the window. Union Station is so well-connected and centrally located that not stopping Alto at or very close to it will discourage so many trips that could otherwise be made.
Not going to Union is fantasy land. Seriously, if you asked all passengers using Via if there were only one station in Toronto, where should it be, I am willing to bet my posting rights on the fact that 99% of them would not list any other station than Union. Having other stations,may work, but it may slow the train down, so, is it worth that extra time for some to have a closer station? It may be different if the line will have a local and express train service.
 
My original post wasn't even implying that we need multiple Toronto stops on the one (1) HSR line - I was saying that the one Toronto stop shouldn't be Union.
You are right, but only to the point that many HSR networks serve more than one stop per metropolitan area.

However, these stops are usually offered in addition (i.e., as a complement, not a substitute!) to a single, central node, in order to help passengers minimize their door-to-door travel times and to facilitate access to/from a wider region:
Certain (or even all) ... trainsmay stop at ...in addition to the main stop at ...
ICEAltona, Dammtor and/or HarburgHamburg Hauptbahnhof
ICESpandau or Gesundbrunnen and Ostbahnhof or SüdkreuzBerlin Hauptbahnhof
ICEPasing and/or OstbahnhofMünchen Hauptbahnhof
ICEBrussels-NoordBrussels-Midi
ICEBasel Badischer BahnhofBasel SBB
Eurostar (legacy "Thalys")Schipol AirportAmsterdam Centraal
RailjetVienna AirportWien Hauptbahnhof
FR/ItaloTorino Porta SusaTorino Porta Nuova
FR/ItaloMilano RogoredoMilano Centrale
FR/ItaloVenezia MestreVenezia Santa Lucia
FR/ItaloRoma TiburtinaRoma Termini
Snabbtag (legacy "X2000")Copenhagen AirportCopenhagen Central Station
TGVLyon PerracheLyon Part-Dieu
ShinkansenTokyo UneoTokyo Station

It is therefore important to understand the longstanding trends of passenger rail service and infrastructure design, in particular when it comes to the location of rail stations serving metropolitan centers, which has evolved through three distinct phases:

Phase 1: Multiple terminal stations (1830s to mid-19th century)
During the early railway days, railroad construction was the business of privately funded and competing railroads, which would build separate termini for their separate networks and these termini would be located as close to the city cores as their investors could afford, which was often very fast. Paris Saint-Etienne station was opened in 1837 as terminus of the first passenger line serving Paris and all the four terminal stations served by the TGV were opened within the following 12 years (Gare Montparnasse in 1840, Gare du Nord in 1846 and Gare de l'Est and Gare du Lyon in 1849).

Phase 2: Consolidation into single terminal stations (mid-19th century to early 20th century)
As the railroads evolved from niche mode for the well-off passengers (and investors) to a mass transportation mode, the duplication of terminal stations become increasingly a constraint on the growth of the railroad network. This led to their consolidation into a single central station, with Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof being amongst the first to open in Europe (in 1888), which was located in front of and replaced three separate terminal stations). For more examples, refer to almost any major metropolitan rail station with the words "Hauptbahnhof" or any variation of "Central" in its name. And for us North Americans, we just need to refer to virtually any of the 147 Union Stations in the United States (the first was opened in 1851) and 12 in Canada.

Phase 3: Transformation into single through stations (since the late 19th century)
Apart from minimizing property acquisition costs during construction, terminal (i.e., dead-end stations) had the advantage that you could turn around trains faster by moving a fresh steam locomotive to the end, while cutting the steam locomotive at the front. With the transition to diesel or electric traction, that benefit turned into a disadvantage. Also, with the number of passengers travelling longer distances continuously rising, the continued presence of multiple terminal stations in many cities created an artificial bottleneck onto the growth of many national rail networks, which led to the transformation of single terminal station into through station to link with other terminal stations and lines in countless cities, like the prominent examples from 3 continents shown below:
ProjectYear openedDescription
Berlin Stadtbahn1882Created cross-city link between today's Ostbahnhof and all lines facing west
Hamburg-Altona link line1906Linked the new Hauptbahnhof with the western terminus at Altona
Washington Union Station1908Constructed together with a tunnel right under Capitol Hill
Warsaw cross-city line1933Tunnel linking the old terminals of Zachodnia and Wschodnia with the new underground Centralna station
Montreal Gare Centrale1943Replaced the old "Tunnel Terminal" station and was connected with the existing Kingston and Saint-Hyacinthe Subdivisions through a rail viaduct
Brussels north-south connection1952Tunnel linking the terminal "Noord" (North) and "Zuid/Midi" (South) stations.
Túnel de la risa (Madrid)1967Tunnels linking the "Atocha" terminal with lines north and the new "Charmartin" station
Oslo Tunnel1980Tunnel converting Oslo East station into the new Oslo Central Station, while bypassing the old terminus at Oslo West
Shinkansen Tunnel underneath Tokyo1991Tunnel linking Tokyo station with Ueno station, thus creating a transfer point for Shinkansen trains linking the entire country
City Tunnel (Malmö)2010Tunnel underneath the city allowing to serve Central Station without changing directions
Wien Hauptbahnhof2012Merger of the two adjacent terminal stations Ostbahnhof and Südbahnhof into a single through station
Sants–Sagrera Tunnel (Barcelona)2013Tunnel extending beyond the existing terminus at Sants station and bypassing the secondary terminus at Franca station
Maramay Tunnel (Istanbul)2013Tunnel linking the European and Asian parts of the city, thus replacing Sirkeci and Hydarpasa terminals
Stuttgart 212026 (?)Network of tunnels replacing the existing overground terminal Hauptbahnhof with an underground through station

It is important to note that those cities which were unlucky enough to oversleep Phase 2 and 3 until it was too costly, often had to resort to extremely expensive and not very effective measures to at least mitigate the handicap of operating separate terminal stations in regards to their HSR services: The UK had to dig 3 tunnels with a combined length of 20 km underneath North London and the River Thames (HS1 Phase 2) to allow international HSR trains to terminate across or one block away from the respective terminal stations of the East and West Coast Mainlines. Conversely, France built a dedicated HSR line of 90 km length (LGV Interconnexion Est) to link the HSR lines towards Brussels/London, Strasbourg, Lyon and Bordeaux/Rennes, while bypassing its terminal stations altogether.

Some of these backwaters have different HSR stations in the same city depending on which direction the HSR line is going, which is something so beyond the realm here that we're at least thirty years behind.
Sure, we can of course copy the century-old mistakes countries in Asia and beyond have copied embarrassingly (for them) recently from the Europeans when designing their intercity rail networks and risk spending many more billions a few decades after building additional terminal stations to fix this artificial bottle neck we just created. Or, we just thank the wise people who already fixed this problem for us almost exactly 100 years ago by building a centralized station which was (and still is) accessible from all directions and thus avoids the issues faced by downtown intercity rail stations built during Phase 1 and 2.

This is the choice we are facing with ALTO...
 
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Sure, we can of course copy the century-old mistakes countries in Asia and beyond have copied embarrassingly (for them) recently from the Europeans when designing their intercity rail networks and risk spending many more billions a few decades after building additional terminal stations to fix this artificial bottle neck we just created. Or, we just thank the wise people who already fixed this problem for us almost exactly 100 years ago by building a centralized station which was (and still is) accessible from all directions and thus avoids the issues faced by downtown intercity rail stations built during Phase 1 and 2. This is the choice we are facing with ALTO...
I'm not sure you've ever really elaborated on why this first point is an issue aside from some far-flung TGV stations in France needing a car to reach and the design oversight that that is. This isn't an issue in Asia because they've connected them directly to regional and local rail, which does add some to door-to-door time but does alleviate local traffic issues.

In Beijing, HSR lines terminate depending on their direction. Beijing Station (on the right) is for HSR going North (red arrow). Beijing West (left) is for HSR going south/west, and Beijing South (bottom) is for HSR going south/east. The blue arrows correspond to regional rail which transfers through these stations with most terminating at Beijing. Beijing acts as the general Central Station but for the case of HSR specifically there are three. These all have a variety of local subway routes between them if that is the option instead of continuing on the regional rail.
Beijing HSR.jpg


The way that I see it, Line 1 is already at-or-over capacity at times, and adding more lines into Union is going to exacerbate this issue more-so if we're not upgrading the local (TTC) or regional rail (GO) from Union, especially if those HSR travellers are heading north on Line 1 - GO is not a resource for people living in the city and is mostly for suburban travellers. We can alleviate this issue by having a more Northern HSR station that ties into both GO and TTC.

Toronto HSR Union.jpg


The Beijing example works because there are multiple modes of frequent train service at all stations connecting to all other stations in a variety of directions. The problem with the Union proposal is that it drops everyone into one place which, yes, is a central station and does have service to elsewhere, but it provides a central chokepoint for the entire system as well, dropping people onto local transit which is generally overwhelmed at best and unreliable at worst. What's the alternate scenario if it was similar to this past weekend where there's no subway service b/w St. Andrew & St. Clair West?

Are there any other examples of large cities which have a water barrier on one side preventing service in all directions from it? If this city exists, is its central station against that water or is it moved away from it to provide better coverage? Tokyo is kind of similar but it's more of a ring, so Tokyo Station isn't really comparable to Union as lines can still spread out accordingly. Marseille might be similar but that city has half the geographic footprint that Toronto has and only half the population.

Additionally, from a city design standpoint, I think there's a lot to be said about Toronto's general sprawl with a defined downtown core, which is dissimilar to Asian examples which are more dense throughout. Just as sprawly but with far more density. If Toronto is serious about densifying more than just its downtown it needs to begin providing transit options to people outside of the downtown core, and this is coming from someone who can walk to Union in 10 minutes.

I can leave it to the experts here (genuine) to discuss rail lines and where a more northern HSR station could be planted instead, but it wouldn't bother me at all if ALTO Station was located on Eglinton or at Kennedy, as long as there are local transit options to get me downtown from there. I think my overarching issue is that I don't trust local transit connections to keep pace with a new HSR station, and thus we'll be exacerbating an already-bad situation regardless of where the station ends up. Alternatively, perhaps the clientele we assume will be using HSR is so specific that only a stop at Union makes sense.
 
The way that I see it, Line 1 is already at-or-over capacity at times, and adding more lines into Union is going to exacerbate this issue more-so if we're not upgrading the local (TTC) or regional rail (GO) from Union, especially if those HSR travellers are heading north on Line 1 - GO is not a resource for people living in the city and is mostly for suburban travellers. We can alleviate this issue by having a more Northern HSR station that ties into both GO and TTC.


View attachment 661565

well surprise surprise weve gone full circle.... wasnt this whole "GO Expansion/RER" supposed to turn GO into what you are describing it isnt?
 
I'm not sure you've ever really elaborated on why this first point is an issue aside from some far-flung TGV stations in France needing a car to reach and the design oversight that that is. This isn't an issue in Asia because they've connected them directly to regional and local rail, which does add some to door-to-door time but does alleviate local traffic issues.

In Beijing, HSR lines terminate depending on their direction. Beijing Station (on the right) is for HSR going North (red arrow). Beijing West (left) is for HSR going south/west, and Beijing South (bottom) is for HSR going south/east. The blue arrows correspond to regional rail which transfers through these stations with most terminating at Beijing. Beijing acts as the general Central Station but for the case of HSR specifically there are three. These all have a variety of local subway routes between them if that is the option instead of continuing on the regional rail.


The way that I see it, Line 1 is already at-or-over capacity at times, and adding more lines into Union is going to exacerbate this issue more-so if we're not upgrading the local (TTC) or regional rail (GO) from Union, especially if those HSR travellers are heading north on Line 1 - GO is not a resource for people living in the city and is mostly for suburban travellers. We can alleviate this issue by having a more Northern HSR station that ties into both GO and TTC.



The Beijing example works because there are multiple modes of frequent train service at all stations connecting to all other stations in a variety of directions. The problem with the Union proposal is that it drops everyone into one place which, yes, is a central station and does have service to elsewhere, but it provides a central chokepoint for the entire system as well, dropping people onto local transit which is generally overwhelmed at best and unreliable at worst. What's the alternate scenario if it was similar to this past weekend where there's no subway service b/w St. Andrew & St. Clair West?

We are talking about Alto arriving in about 15 years. GO Expansion including the Smarrtrack stations inside the 416 will be in a whole different place by then. We may even have some more regional connections. Heck, Crosstown may be running by then. The dependence on Line 1 to move people on from Union need not be seen as a showstopper by then.

I agree that we need to be conscious of Union Station maxxing out eventually. That may necessitate a network of non-central hubs to draw some of the load away from Union. We should definitely think of those hubs in terms of the higher order transit network - but I would err on the side of their contributing to future transit investment rather than basing the thinking only on the lines that exist today.

And, I'm not sure we should fool ourselves into thinking that road access is irrelevant. Hopefully less modal share, but any non-central hub will have fairly wide catchment and constructively invites auto/road use for the last mile(s).

I can leave it to the experts here (genuine) to discuss rail lines and where a more northern HSR station could be planted instead, but it wouldn't bother me at all if ALTO Station was located on Eglinton or at Kennedy, as long as there are local transit options to get me downtown from there. I think my overarching issue is that I don't trust local transit connections to keep pace with a new HSR station, and thus we'll be exacerbating an already-bad situation regardless of where the station ends up. Alternatively, perhaps the clientele we assume will be using HSR is so specific that only a stop at Union makes sense.

We do need to be stingy in assuming non-central stations. Can't slow down Alto by stopping everywhere. I would put more emphasis on placing a stop in Durham Region as opposed to Scarborough.

I wonder how boardings at Guildwood today compare to Oshawa - that may be instructive. Even if the Kennedy route is chosen, I would not stop there - a better stop would be out around Cousins/407, so that the entire Markham/Vaughan/Thornhill/Scarborough catchment is oovered (assuming some extension of local transit, of course).

It seems to me the obvious no-brainer non-central destination for HSR is Pearson Airport. There will be lots of connectivity there by 2040 - Crosstown, Mississauga busway, Finch LRT, possibly even Brampton LRT extended from Queen St. The question becomes....how to get there without taxing the LSE/Kitchener corridors.

DoFo's search for a bypass is not wrongheaded if you assume the need for non-Union cross GTA regional trains. But I'm not sure the North Toronto Sub is far enough north to be the best choice. Either CN or Hydro One might offer better choices, not cheap but maybe more useful to a much larger catchment. Let's not be Downtown or even 416-suburban centric. Remember the 905!

- Paul
 
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I wonder how boardings at Guildwood today compare to Oshawa - that may be instructive. Even if the Kennedy route is chosen, I would not stop there - a better stop would be out around Cousins/407, so that the entire Markham/Vaughan/Thornhill/Scarborough catchment is oovered (assuming some extension of local transit, of course).

The last comprehensive station by station ridership numbers I recall are from 2019


From the above:

1750864609259.png


Annual/ Daily

Guildwood: 242k / 991

Oshawa: 856k/ 3.5k
 
The last comprehensive station by station ridership numbers I recall are from 2019

Annual/ Daily

Guildwood: 242k / 991

Oshawa: 856k/ 3.5k

Thanks! That's GO ridership, I was also wondering about the VIA ridership to points east.

- Paul

PS - while I'm usually not enthusiastic about a North Toronto Corridor GO service, I am a bit down a rabbit hole fmusing about a second UP-GO route that serves Weston, Mount Dennis, and then crosses the city on the North Toronto line (giving options for stops at North Toronto, Leaside, and Agincourt) before connecting to Alto at the Alto East Toronto stop, wherever it ended up. I bet that would add considerable use of UP for people currently taking auto to Pearson.... and if it served Weston and Mount Dennis, it would relieve the Union UP trains of the need to stop there at all, promoting a more express service to Union, possibly adding a stop at Liberty without sacrificing timing. And offer an alternative routing for people heading west without using Union as their Alto terminal. Just today's fantasy line.

- Paul
 
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Thanks! That's GO ridership, I was also wondering about the VIA ridership to points east.

- Paul

PS - while I'm usually not enthusiastic about a North Toronto Corridor GO service, I am a bit down a rabbit hole fmusing about a second UP-GO route that serves Weston, Mount Dennis, and then crosses the city on the North Toronto line (giving options for stops at North Toronto, Leaside, and Agincourt) before connecting to Alto at the Alto East Toronto stop, wherever it ended up. I bet that would add considerable use of UP for people currently taking auto to Pearson.... and if it served Weston and Mount Dennis, it would relieve the Union UP trains of the need to stop there at all, promoting a more express service to Union, possibly adding a stop at Liberty without sacrificing timing. And offload Union as the Alto terminal. Just today's fantasy line.

- Paul

Here you go:

1750865581262.png


1750865529847.png


1750865558229.png


 
I agree that we need to be conscious of Union Station maxxing out eventually.

- Paul

I didn't reply to this comment initially, felt no need............but in an amusing to me coincidence...........this map came across my social feed:

1750883856313.png


It occurred to me to look up the numbers for Union then the above post came to mind.

Union has 300,000 people pass through daily (that's combined TTC/GO/VIA/Bus etc.

~72M per year.

That wouldn't even see as last on the above list of 20.

Perhaps our capacity expectations are too low?
 

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