[dowlingm]

To be fair to the Drummondville route falling ridership, the single track sections along there have contributed to some fairly well publicized “stuck on broken train” stories since Venture rollout began. If the service was reliable and more resilient maybe demand would climb again. Has the CAQ government been as insistent as the PCPO on return to office? That may also account for some failure to rebound.

I’m not well versed in the Montreal scene but to say Exo does nothing seems a little unfair. It was really doing something in the AMT era with the DPs and MLVs, and the electrification in the suburbs. Not their fault the province stripped them of the DM line and the tunnel, leaving them with an awkward remnant network, surely? However, like GO and London, surely there is a limit to how far in journey time Exo can substitute commuter cars.

In any case, VIA will presumably continue to operate Ocean over that south shore trackage, since Alto have no responsibility for LD operations.

 

[micheal_can]

To be fair to the Drummondville route falling ridership, the single track sections along there have contributed to some fairly well publicized “stuck on broken train” stories since Venture rollout began. If the service was reliable and more resilient maybe demand would climb again. Has the CAQ government been as insistent as the PCPO on return to office? That may also account for some failure to rebound.

I’m not well versed in the Montreal scene but to say Exo does nothing seems a little unfair. It was really doing something in the AMT era with the DPs and MLVs, and the electrification in the suburbs. Not their fault the province stripped them of the DM line and the tunnel, leaving them with an awkward remnant network, surely? However, like GO and London, surely there is a limit to how far in journey time Exo can substitute commuter cars.

In any case, VIA will presumably continue to operate Ocean over that south shore trackage, since Alto have no responsibility for LD operations.

So they get 2 trains a week?

 

[kEiThZ]

St Hyacinthe is a city of 60,000 people located 50 km from Gare Centrale de Montréal. Drummondville is 80,000 people located 100 km from gare centrale.

There is definitely a lot of ridership potential there if a convenient, affordable and quick train service were provided (i.e by Exo). Just because Via is poorly suited to provide the service doesn't mean there's no potential demand there.

There needs to be some way to do a handoff of service. The feds should fund some capital investments for Exo (perhaps even rolling stock transfer) and let them take over service. Post Alto, these kinds of routes (<= 100 km) will make no sense without some kind of commuter service.

I think service along Lake Ontario is saved by Kingston. Otherwise, I'd think you'd kiss those goodbye as well.

VIA or Metrolinx really needs to be pushed about a Kingston hub operation.

 

[micheal_can]

There needs to be some way to do a handoff of service. The feds should fund some capital investments for Exo (perhaps even rolling stock transfer) and let them take over service. Post Alto, these kinds of routes (<= 100 km) will make no sense without some kind of commuter service.



VIA or Metrolinx really needs to be pushed about a Kingston hub operation.

What would be a good thing is if Via was given a mandate similar to Amtrak where provinces could fund it and Via could operate it.

 

[kEiThZ]

What would be a good thing is if Via was given a mandate similar to Amtrak where provinces could fund it and Via could operate it.

No need for that. Metrolinx can operate it just as well.

 

[micheal_can]

No need for that. Metrolinx can operate it just as well.

Can they operate into Montreal?

 

[nfitz]

I’m not well versed in the Montreal scene but to say Exo does nothing seems a little unfair. It was really doing something in the AMT era with the DPs and MLVs, and the electrification in the suburbs ....

What's the electrification in the suburbs? Bus-charging stations?

However, like GO and London, surely there is a limit to how far in journey time Exo can substitute commuter cars.

I think the London issue may be differet, and not a fair trial, given the track speeds and the bizarre train time, that only really served trips to Toronto, which would have made more sense on VIA. It's the London to Kitchener/Guelph ridership that would have been more significant I think.

Clearly there was at least enough demand from that experiment to restore Stratford service!

 

[reaperexpress]

The point is, once the government has Alto to brag about, yes it will gladly walk away from the other service. Or leave it for the province to pick up. Just ask places like Niagara or Kitchener-Waterloo how that works.

Let's see how that worked out for Niagara and Kitchener-Waterloo.

Toronto-Kitchener:
In 2008 before GO started running to KW, there were only 3 Via trains per day.

Today there are 12 trains per day to Kitchener on weekdays (1 Via, 11 GO), plus connecting buses to provide hourly or better service.

On weekends there are 5 trains per day (1 Via, 4 GO*) plus hourly or better connecting buses.
* including new Stratford trip to be introduced on 6 July 2026


Toronto-Niagara
In 2008 before GO started running to Niagara, there were 3 trains per day, one of which (93) only operated in the summer months.

Today there are 4 trains per day (3 GO + 1 Via) plus hourly local bus service. During the summer months there is also hourly express bus service.

Both lines also have serious plans for further service expansion, which was never the case when they were operated by the feds.

 

[Urban Sky]

Toronto-Niagara
In 2008 before GO started running to Niagara, there were 3 trains per day.
View attachment 736300

In addition to your excellent analysis, it’s worth noting that that third train only operated in summer, as indicated by the asterisk:
* Seasonal service operates from June 21, 2008 to September 29, 2008

 

[reaperexpress]

In addition to your excellent analysis, it’s worth noting that that third train only operated in summer, as indicated by the asterisk:
* Seasonal service operates from June 21, 2008 to September 29, 2008

Oh, good catch! I hadn't noticed the asterisk.

And as always, thanks for sharing your historical timetable archive with us, which is where I got the old Via timetables from.

 

[dowlingm]

So they get 2 trains a week?

the point being that they would retain the station presence for those two trains / direction / week. The minimum may justify retaining other service, as compared to places which have no VIA presence other than Corridor and the temptation might be to divest of stations etc.

 

[micheal_can]

the point being that they would retain the station presence for those two trains / direction / week. The minimum may justify retaining other service, as compared to places which have no VIA presence other than Corridor and the temptation might be to divest of stations etc.

Imagine today you have ~9 trains a day each way and in 15 years you have 2 trains a week each day. I know if I were a regular user in that area I would be up in arms!

 

[crs1026]

Let's see how that worked out for Niagara and Kitchener-Waterloo.

Both lines also have serious plans for further service expansion, which was never the case when they were operated by the feds.

Fair enough, GO has stepped into the gap for Toronto service on those routes, but at the expense of connectivity to the intercity network.

I would go back a bit further to where both lines offered morning, midday, and afternoon connectivity to lines east and (for Kitchener) through connections to Windsor. Since 1990, that connectivity has been whittled down. That's not ridership declining, it's VIA being backed away from the market.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

No need for that. Metrolinx can operate it just as well.

I think that is the natural progression; although, admittedly, the time line may be far in the future. It would require a change in Metrolinx legislation, but I think the combination of the southern Ontario population coupled with a retraction in local VIA service could spawn expanded hub/nodes. To a degree, it would be a move away from a Toronto-centric system.

Northern Ontario would be a tougher nut to crack simply because of the population, notwithstanding some think they 'deserve' it.

Can they operate into Montreal?

Not as currently regulated. Want to go from Kingston to Montreal? Go to Ottawa, grab ALTO.

 

[micheal_can]

I think that is the natural progression; although, admittedly, the time line may be far in the future. It would require a change in Metrolinx legislation, but I think the combination of the southern Ontario population coupled with a retraction in local VIA service could spawn expanded hub/nodes. To a degree, it would be a move away from a Toronto-centric system.

Northern Ontario would be a tougher nut to crack simply because of the population, notwithstanding some think they 'deserve' it.

Start with a business plan and the show that there is a lack of need. Or, show it has a similar need to the return of the Northlander.

Not as currently regulated. Want to go from Kingston to Montreal? Go to Ottawa, grab ALTO.

What about the stations in between?