[EnviroTO]

Isn't there 43 work trips per month on average? This is getting ridiculous. They should figure out the ratio between MVP Pass, Monthly Pass Subscription, Monthly Pass, Day Pass, Adult Token, Adult Fare, Child Fare, etc... and stick to the ratio rounding to 25 cents on cash fares. The slow erosion of monthly pass value needs to stop at some point.

 

[nfitz]

how the hell are people expected to pay $3.05? Its easy enough dropping a toonie and a loonie in the bin now, why do people have to add a nickel?

The 5¢ increase is for tokens. The proposal was to increase cash fares by a quarter, to $3.25. No one proposed simply increasing cash fares by a nickel.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

From blog.to:

Want lower TTC (and GO) fares? Get Queens Park & Ottawa to contribute to an OPERATING subsidy, like other western democracies.

 

[Electrify]

From blog.to:

Want lower TTC (and GO) fares? Get Queens Park & Ottawa to contribute to an OPERATING subsidy, like other western democracies.

Q: How come Ottawa's subsidy is so much more than Toronto's? They are both high ridership systems in Ontario, shouldn't they have somewhat similar numbers?

Also how come Montreal's system, which is arguably of similar size (full disclosure, Toronto's land area is 26% larger OR Montreal is 20% smaller), gets 16% more subsidy yet this covers 46% of the costs while Toronto's only covers 27%?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Ottawa has higher overheads with its bus only system, and believe it or not, isn't as busy as Torontos network. The TTC is extremely, extremely efficient. people like to think otherwise, but it operates on a level of extreme fiscal conservation.

Montreal handles 115 million less annual riders, and has a larger subsidy. this means that per rider, the subsidy will be much higher.

 

[nfitz]

Q: How come Ottawa's subsidy is so much more than Toronto's? They are both high ridership systems in Ontario, shouldn't they have somewhat similar numbers?

Also how come Montreal's system, which is arguably of similar size (full disclosure, Toronto's land area is 26% larger OR Montreal is 20% smaller), gets 16% more subsidy yet this covers 46% of the costs while Toronto's only covers 27%?

Good question.

Look at the 2012 SMT annual report (in English!) http://www.stm.info/sites/default/files/pdf/en/a-ra2012.pdf.

As far as I can tell, they are using the 2012 ridership, but looks like the 2011 subsidy. There was a ridership and subsidy increase between the years. As I calculate it, the total operating subsidy for 2012 for Montreal is $534M not $478M. (operating cost of $1,103M - $533M of revenue from customers and $36M other revenue).

Using this revised number, if you back out the cost of trip in Montreal, it's $2.81 in 2012 compared to $2.88 for TTC in 2013.

If inflation was 2.5%, then the cost per trip in Montreal would be identical.

Also this is the 2012 numbers for Montreal, not the 2013 numbers. STM estimates the 2013 subsidy required to be $571,000,000.

Looks very comparable to me!

 

[Electrify]

Also doing the math, I calculate the TTC's total operating costs to be about $1.522 billion, and STM to be $1.039 billion. So yeah, considering the area and services provided, why the hell does it cost 47% more to operate transit in Toronto?! Even in Chicago, a city of even more similar area and population as Toronto, total operating costs come to $1.035 billion!

If Toronto's operating costs were $1.1 billion, that $411 million would translate to a 38% subsidy and a 62% revenue/cost ratio.

Before we all start blaming the unions, I believe that Montreal employees are paid a similar rate as Toronto's (I will double check this next week though). And despite Montreal using smart cards and automated trains, they too have employees in ticketbooths and aboard trains.

 

[taal]

Your not taking ridership into account ... the TTC carries ~ 150 million more then Chicago ...

 

[innsertnamehere]

same with Montreal. Toronto operations cost $2.88 a rider, while Montreal's operations cost $2.51 per customer. not much different, and Montreal has a smaller service area and a more urban population to support it. considering the amount of suburban areas the TTC covers compared to STM its surprising that the cost per rider number isn't much larger.

 

[nfitz]

same with Montreal. Toronto operations cost $2.88 a rider, while Montreal's operations cost $2.51 per customer. not much different, and Montreal has a smaller service area and a more urban population to support it.

Using Montreal's numbers for 2012 you get $2.81 a rider ... TTC seems to have blown the math. TTC is $2.88 for 2013. Not a big difference.

 

[nfitz]

Also doing the math, I calculate the TTC's total operating costs to be about $1.522 billion, and STM to be $1.039 billion. So yeah, considering the area and services provided, why the hell does it cost 47% more to operate transit in Toronto?!

STM reported that their 2012 costs were $1.103 billion, not $1.039 billion. As I mentioned above, it looks as though TTC managed to use 2011 costs for STM which are $1.024 billion (some rounding somewhere I guess.

If you want apples to apples, Montreal is $1.157 billion for 2013. TTC is $1.522 billion. So TTC is 31.5% more. But look at ridership. In 2012 TTC was 514 million compared to 413 million in Montreal. So TTC is 24% more riders.

So not 47% more ... but 32% more ... but TTC carries 24% more passengers. Not that dissimilar. If you drill down into the differences in Montreal/Torotno ridership, you'll see that subway usage is very similar, but bus usage is much higher in Toronto. The cost per rider on buses is going to be higher than subways, given the much higher staffing.

Even in Chicago, a city of even more similar area and population as Toronto, total operating costs come to $1.035 billion!

What's area got to to do with it? Chicago CTA carries less passengers than TTC. And I'd think they'd be more efficient as well. Look a the most recent APTA ridership report - http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2013-q2-ridership-APTA.pdf. The El in Chicago carries an average of 729,400 a day compared to 901,200 on the TTC subway (not including SRT). However TTC buses and streetcars carry 1,699,600 a day compared to only 987,500 on Chicago buses.

If Toronto's operating costs were $1.1 billion, that $411 million would translate to a 38% subsidy and a 62% revenue/cost ratio.

But Toronto's operating costs aren't $1.1 billion. But they would be, if we cut bus/streetcar service so that we only carried what the Chicago buses did.

 

[Electrify]

How frequent is surface service in Chicago? If frequency on key routes is every 15-20 minutes compared to Toronto's 5-, then I could see it make an impact on operating costs.

I'm also taking passenger volume out of the equation. It costs about the same to run a bus whether 5 people board it or 50. Okay stopping and starting more often does add to the fuel costs, but the bus mechanic and driver I would think make up the majority.

That said, what is the breakdown of funding that Montreal sees?

 

[doady]

Very interesting to see revenue ridership (linked trips) numbers for US systems. That data is hard to find. Usually the only numbers I see are boardings (unlinked trips), which is the standard there.

Ontario cities overall have lower operating subsidy than other Canadian and US systems due to lack of funding from higher levels of government (especially the province). TTC's revenue/cost ratio is abnormally high, but same is true for Mississauga and Brampton.

What's missing from the chart is # service hours, but I guess that's sort of implied already.

I'm also taking passenger volume out of the equation. It costs about the same to run a bus whether 5 people board it or 50. Okay stopping and starting more often does add to the fuel costs, but the bus mechanic and driver I would think make up the majority.

A bus that stops more often to pick up and let off passengers is also slower. That means the frequency and capacity is lowered if the amount of buses on the route does change. To maintain the frequency and capacity, more buses have to be added to the route, which increases operating costs.

Using Montreal's numbers for 2012 you get $2.81 a rider ... TTC seems to have blown the math. TTC is $2.88 for 2013. Not a big difference.

Subisidy per rider is often calculated using boardings instead of revenue ridership (to calaculated subsidy/rider of a particular route, you have no choice but to use boardings), which is the case for TTC and STM here. However for Mississauga they calcuated using revenue ridership instead of boardings, so it is inflated. Mississauga should be $1.54 to be comparable to TTC and STM on that chart. Same problem with Brampton, Durham, Hamilton, York...