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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Forgot to mention earlier, Nova Bus is backlogged and that’s one of the reasons why we haven’t seen more deliveries to the TTC. Another reason is the TTC wanting to make a few changes.
Steve X
Senior Member
TTC has never tested the Nova LFSe+ electric bus till now unlike the New Flyer XE40 which they got 4 years of experience. Changes are expected from the pilot bus. Nova seems to be backlogged since the pandemic which is why they didn't get an even split on the orders in the first place.
RapidTransit
Active Member
I'm pretty sure the only reason why TTC is going with Nova for EV buses is because the feds is funding good portion of them, and they need to support and maintain jobs in Quebec. And this was before Proterra going under and the tariffs on BYD.
At least they're Canadian. But ride quality , regardless of propulsion is horrible with Nova. They need a new bus design.
TTC has their own reports on how New Flyer have better EV buses in comparison. But overall EV buses will never replace or be as good had the hybrids or Diesel buses.
Hopefully with the changes coming to EPA in the States, there will be changes to go away from EV buses. If I'm going to be reliant on TTC , I don't want to be on a test bus to get me somewhere important. It's bad enough TTC had ongoing issues with existing proven technology. Imagine EV in mass through out the system.
Hopefully the next Bus order, TTC goes back to hybrids at least. Even the whole raw materials just to get these batteries is so harmful and unethical. Then the disposal of them when they're wasted. But that's a whole other discussion altogether.
smallspy
Senior Member
No, the reason why the TTC is also ordering from Nova is because ordering from New Flyer alone would not allow them to get the quantity of buses that they need in service in time.
But even with Nova's current production and delivery issues, New Flyer has seemed to be in a position to deliver their quantity of buses at least within the terms of the contract if not sooner.
Dan
KevinT
Active Member
Wow, big oil loves you!
Batteries are already getting recycled, with more facilities coming online, and the raw material extraction for batteries is no worse than that of oil, and actually better because oil is gone in one of several thousand explosions per minute while the lithium and other metals in a battery are used for 10 years and then recycled.
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turbanplanner
Senior Member
This would be like saying get rid of restaurants because waiters are paid too little instead of just paying them more
On top of that, what are the reliability issues? The only big issue I know of is not being able to be out for 24 hours straight.
drum118
Superstar
If TTC puts in charging stations at bus loops and bus terminal like they do in Europe, you can keep buses on route for 24 or more hours. I have seen buses take 5-10 minutes for charging at various locations as well being on a few that is built into their layover time for a run. I have seen buses do top off that is done in minutes than do a full charge at a later time.
Brampton has a few Charging stations for the route where they are testing the E-buses as well seen it in the US as well along existing lines.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Looks like the TTC will get five Karsan electric buses for a Wheel-Trans trial. Similar vehicles are in operation with Oakville and St John. Here are photos of one with a rideshare company I saw at last year’s trade show. The vehicles for the TTC might be a bit bigger and configured differently.
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RapidTransit
Active Member
Appreciate the example your showing us. But with not much room for wheelchairs/scooters to be accommodated, I wonder if TTC will use these for community service?
Or, I assume TTC will spec it to accommodate more scooters/wheelchairs , and like you mentioned , larger version of these buses.
Similar to the Orion 2s TTC got in the mid 1980s and the community Orion 2 they got in 1991. Same model , but different spec.
The other question I have, with all the tariffs talks, and city council wanting locally made product and services, are these Canadian made? And if not are there 30ft or shorter buses made in Canada for community service? It would be interesting to know. I'm pretty sure Karsan is Turkish? Possibly assembled in Canada? I know council made a decision to go with locally made, so I'm curious.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
From what I’ve heard, Karsan is working on a larger version with a door on the rear like the Orion II. Likely more flat floor space for more wheelchairs.
Karsans are manufactured in Turkey. But they have a Mississauga plant code in the VIN, so I’m not sure if Damera does any final assembly here.
Letenda, a new company from Quebec, has a 30 foot low floor bus with a completely flat floor like an Orion II. Designed and manufactured in Quebec. It’s a neat bus and I’ve attached some photos I took of it in Toronto. I think, however, at 30 feet, these were too long for what TTC wants for Wheel-Trans.
rbt
Senior Member
I realize they're funding a prototype, which has a lot of extra costs involved on the manufacturing side, but $1.1M per unit seems like a lot.
The 2019 ProMaster Bus deliveries were $360k per vehicle. I hope if the TTC buys 100+ of the Karsan model in the near future they get better pricing.
drum118
Superstar
There been a huge price jumps since 2019 as well a longer delivery time.
Mississauga Nova Bus HEV cost $893,183 in 2019 and the 2024 only arriving now as NFI XDE40 are costing $1,270,012.76 each. All 83 are to be here by March with about 12 here now. Normal see a 3% yearly increase. Going electric from year to year is even a higher spread cost wise.
NovaBus LFS cost $581,562.05 for a diesel bus in 2018 and in 2019 the HEV cost $893,183 and that is a huge jump. Since Mississauga is not getting electric buses, cannot do an comparison cost wise. Since they think it will be cheaper going Hydrogen at $4 million each using GTTA fueling station and running out of the Malton garage that is a 15 minute run in each direction as a pilot project. Very few systems world wide using Hydrogen with one system getting a round 350 buses over the next few years.
As of 2023, only 123 Hydrogen were in service. Solaris has 700 Hydrogen buses on order for 2025 and a small number compare to electric buses on order for 2025.
You are comparing a diesel vehicle to electric vehicle, with electric being real costly not only to buy, but the infrastructure that is need to support them. TTC will have to install infrastructure for these buses since there is nothing there to support them now.
jordanmkasla2009
Active Member
A bit of an interesting glitch in the tracking for one of the 6xxx XE40s 
Mind_the_gap
Active Member
Solaris won the trolleybus procurement in Vancouver:
TLDR:
SourceComing soon: the first of Metro Vancouver’s next-generation trolley buses
March 3, 2025
|In What’s News
|By Allen Tung
The Solaris Trollino 12 trolley bus leaving the bus loop at 29th Avenue Station during summer 2023 demonstration.
We have some electrifying news to share that will have you buzzing!
After two decades on the road and racking up more than 205 million kilometres on the odometer, our current trolley buses are reaching the end of service life so we’re replacing them.
We’re renewing our fleet of 262 trolley buses, which currently consists of 188 40-foot buses and 74 60-foot buses, with new buses from Solaris Bus & Coach.
Solaris is one of the leading zero-emission transit bus manufacturers in Europe.
Our next-generation trolley bus fleet will consist of the Solaris Trollino 12 (standard, 40-foot bus) and Trollino 18 (articulated, 60-foot bus). The buses will use a propulsion system from MedCom and destination signs from Luminator.
We will receive 107 40-foot trolley buses to start. The contract includes options for additional buses, which will allow us to completely replace our current fleet of 262 trolley buses. The options, if fully exercised, is for up to 201 additional 40-foot buses and up to 204 articulated, 60-foot trolley buses.
Like our current buses, the Trollino is a low-floor bus, allowing step-free boarding and passengers who use a wheelchair to roll on and off.
What’s new
These are our first trolley buses to be air conditioned for customer and operator comfort and have in-motion charging — the latest in trolleybus technology. It allows buses to draw power from the overhead wires for both driving and charging its on-board battery.
This means the new trolley buses will be able to operate away from overhead wires for about 20 kilometres.
This opens the possibility for where trolley buses can go in the future. It includes bus routes where there are trolley overhead wires for only part of the route or during temporary detours that currently require switching to diesel buses.
Our current trolleys can only travel a couple hundred metres using their on-board battery and are designed to travel around blockages, not for regular operations.
Design underway
In-motion charging is a proven technology and in use worldwide. As part of our efforts to understand it and how it would work in Metro Vancouver, Solaris demonstrated its bus in Vancouver during summer 2023.
The Solaris Trollino 12 trolley bus at Marpole Loop during its summer 2023 demonstration.
Eagle-eyed readers may notice that bus had a third door at its rear. Buses are built according to the specifications of each transit agency, and that bus was built for a different agency.
Our buses will follow Coast Mountain Bus Company’s specifications. Design is currently underway, and customers can expect that when the new trolley buses join our fleet, they’ll be similar to our current buses.
The first pilot bus is scheduled to arrive sometime next year. This will allow us to fine-tune specifications and gather operating data before the rest of the trolley buses start to roll off the assembly line in the coming years.
The buses will operate out of our Vancouver Transit Centre bus depot, our home base for the trolleybus fleet.
It is the second largest in Canada and the United States and we’re currently the only transit system in Canada that operates trolley buses.
This reflects our commitment to electric transit.
TLDR:
I'm ecstatic!