[rbt]

This thread isn't about public transit overall. I was just comparing BART, a regional service, to the GO Train, a regional service. When I pointed out BART's 15 minute all day frequency, I was not saying it is a better frquency than the 2 to 3 minutes of the TTC Subway.

BART is roughly 160km in size and doubles as their downtown rapid transit trunk line so I think taking into account our ~70km subway network which also serves as a downtown rapid transit trunk line is entirely appropriate; particularaly with increased integration between GO and TTC such as Sheppard West station.

On top of that, the Lake Shore line by itself is ~110km in size and does have service levels comparable to BART during a large chunk of the day. IMHO, LakeShore can offer better travel times during peak periods due to express trains. As mentioned earlier, not all of Bart has the 15 minute all day service, weekend service, etc.


On top of that, Toronto has 300km of additional peak-period regional rail service that the Bay Area with a population of 7Million does not have at all.


For a hybrid system, BART sucks for the population it serves. Washington DC Metro is a much superior example of a hybrid regional rail and local service system.

As said in another comment, BART is excellent for a few very specific trips like going from the Airport to Downtown, or Downtown to Berkeley. I'm a huge fan of the $1.25 Marin City to Downtown San Fran bus. Last time I took it it was classed as a community bus, so there was a reduced rate.

 

[CDL.TO]

On top of that, Toronto has 300km of additional peak-period regional rail service that the Bay Area with a population of 7Million does not have at all.

You're completely right in your assessment, so sorry for nitpicking. Don't forget Caltrain (all-day with express trips, peak-period extension, and in the process of electrifying) and the Altamont Commuter Express (peak only).

 

[rbt]

You're completely right in your assessment, so sorry for nitpicking. Don't forget Caltrain (all-day with express trips, peak-period extension, and in the process of electrifying) and the Altamont Commuter Express (peak only).

I did indeed forget Caltrain. That adds another 125km to the Bay Area system.

I had considered Amtrak (Emeryville is close enough to downtown) but thought Toronto Via was roughly equal so left both out.

 

[doady]

BART is roughly 160km in size and doubles as their downtown rapid transit trunk line so I think taking into account our ~70km subway network which also serves as a downtown rapid transit trunk line is entirely appropriate; particularaly with increased integration between GO and TTC such as Sheppard West station.

On top of that, the Lake Shore line by itself is ~110km in size and does have service levels comparable to BART during a large chunk of the day. IMHO, LakeShore can offer better travel times during peak periods due to express trains. As mentioned earlier, not all of Bart has the 15 minute all day service, weekend service, etc.

On top of that, Toronto has 300km of additional peak-period regional rail service that the Bay Area with a population of 7Million does not have at all.

You really believe that the Lakeshore Line's 15 minute peak direction service and hourly non-peak service is comparable to BART's 15+ minutes all day?

~50 trips per day, vs ~150 trips per day: Lakeshore West and East are each like one-third of the service. Milton is like one-tenth. Only if you added all of the GO Train service from all lines together would be it be equal to the amount of service a single BART line gets.

The ridership is not very good though. Only around 350k riders per weekday compared to GO Train's 180k. Also, the TTC subway is 1M riders per weekday. San Francisco has nothing comparable to that.

So overall the regional service is superior to the GTA, but the local service is inferior. I was just amazed that S-bahn style system exists in North America and comparing to GO Transit. If you want to defend GO's unwillingness to add service and it obsession with 80+% cost recovery and parking space, then more power to you I guess. Personally, I think GO Transit/Metrolinx sucks.

 

[rbt]

You really believe that the Lakeshore Line's 15 minute peak direction service and hourly non-peak service is comparable to BART's 15+ minutes all day?

For 80%+ of the riders on both systems; yes, yes I do.

When do 80% of the riders take LakeShore? What are the service levels like at that time?

When do 80% of riders take BART (hint, it's roughly the same timeframe if you exclude the downtown core local-service and Airport branch) and what are service levels like at that time?


I completely agree that GO LakeShore service is worse on the chart. Ultimately, for the commuter crowd, they're essentially equal.

The ridership is not very good though. Only around 350k riders per weekday compared to GO Train's 180k. Also, the TTC subway is 1M riders per weekday. San Francisco has nothing comparable to that.

The majority of BART riders board/deboard between the MacArthur and Balboa Park which I would contribute to their "Local" ridership.

I wouldn't be surprised if GO had more riders in the commuter category than BART does.

Again, see Washington DC for a great hybrid system. It has a similar regional population size of 7 Million and double the ridership of BART.

Personally, I think GO Transit/Metrolinx sucks.

I never said GO didn't suck. I happen to think BART also sucks, particularaly the huge swaths of the region that it doesn't cover.

FYI, great sushi on Polk at the shop next to the fish mongers.