I'll point out the "Villiers Island" is five syllables, yet somehow that's ok. Yet Minising Ookwemin is way too long? I'd argue it's more because it is unfamiliar to us, because we don't see many Anishabe/Ojibwe words on signs, or the ones we do are familiar (Nipissing, Temagami, Chi Chimaun).
 
Sometimes understanding the pronunciation of a name is breaking it down into familiar words we can associate with, In this case, Ookwemin Minising becomes "Okay Min Minny Sing"...which is kinda catchy, IMO. Then tweak it back up to its correct pronunciation, (Oh-kway-min Min-nih-sing), particularly with the first part of the name....

...and Bob's your uncle? Well, that's depending on how well we accept the new name here outside its pronunciation.
 
Yes, people will call things whatever they want - we still say "Skydome" and most people just call it "Pearson" and not "Toronto Pearson International Airport." The pronunciation of Toronto is very different than the Indigenous languages it is based upon (hence why people want the name to be "Tkaronto") - and it is even different than it is spelled: most of us say "Tuh-ranna" and not "Toe-ron-to." People will invent short forms for difficult-to-pronounce names, like how "Roncesvalles Street" is called "Roncey." People will call the place whatever works for them - we don't need to worry too much about that.

But part of Reconciliation is about just putting more names from Indigenous languages onto things, and people just getting used to it. If the concern that "people will not know how to pronounce it" is used as a cudgel, we will never give things Indigenous names.

People will feel uncomfortable and annoyed at first, and then it will just become part of the city, and an odd form of mispronunciation will stick to it, but we will have that place name to remind us of our history. (Something many people on this site seem to care about in other contexts...)
 
Parkdalian said:
But part of Reconciliation is about just putting more names from Indigenous languages onto things, and people just getting used to it. If the concern that "people will not know how to pronounce it" is used as a cudgel, we will never give things Indigenous names.
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Again, Toronto, Mississauga, and Canada are all indigenous names. It's merely that we anglicized the spelling/pronunciation. We don't lack for indigenous names

I have no objection to more; we have plenty of generic, uninteresting names that could exit.

I simply want some sense applied so that they are adopted.

****

I will, however, go on to say that real reconciliation is equalizing healthcare, educational, employment and wealth attainment outcomes for the First Nations community. None of which will be furthered by a symbolic gesture. That's not an argument against some symbolism here and there; just to say its not where priority should be placed.
 
Northern Light said:
Again, Toronto, Mississauga, and Canada are all indigenous names. It's merely that we anglicized the spelling/pronunciation. We don't lack for indigenous names

I have no objection to more; we have plenty of generic, uninteresting names that could exit.

I simply want some sense applied so that they are adopted.

****

I will, however, go on to say that real reconciliation is equalizing healthcare, educational, employment and wealth attainment outcomes for the First Nations community. None of which will be furthered by a symbolic gesture. That's not an argument against some symbolism here and there; just to say its not where priority should be placed.
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What's the "some sense" you want applied? Is there a clear criteria?
 
DSC said:
Two hundred years ago, the area now called the Port Lands, was one of the largest freshwater marshes on Lake Ontario. Elders in the Indigenous Advisory Circle recalled that this area had an abundance of Ookwemin “black cherry” trees that grew throughout the waterfront area.
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Those elders must be really old.

christiesplits said:
It won't stop it from being nicknamed "Lower Riverside" or "East Distillery" by the time the MLS listings pop up.

Is there a plan to rename the neighbouring McCleary District?
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I started out life in what is now dubbed the 'Upper Beaches'. I don't think I ever saw water.
 
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Parkdalian said:
What's the "some sense" you want applied? Is there a clear criteria?
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Either pronounceable to an English language speaker as-is; or anglicize the spelling such than an English speaker is able to say that word.

I noted this difference with Mississauga in a post up thread.

From said post:

1730563377519.png

Here we see the word was modified to make it more intuitive/easy to pronounce in English.

It should be said, we do this with every other language in the world, and most do that to English words/names as well, they translate them for local speakers.

Canada is spelt Καναδάς in Greek, Kanada in Czech and Croat and German, among others, In Russian, our country is Канада, while the Japanese call our home: カナダ

They don't attempt to use our alphabet or only use our pronunciation to the extent locals can get their tongue around it.

*****

Meanwhile, we call Firenze, Florence, we call Nederland, Netherlands, and we call Deutchland...........Germany..... wow that one is close... LOL

Hell, we even turned Wien into Vienna.

But again, others do this to our place names so they can say them, it's just practical, that's all.
 
one of the things I hate about arguments like these, is that it starts to show me how conservatism starts pulling progressive minded people who feel alienated by their movement. And nobody who sees themselves as progressive wants to become ‘that guy’

The internet is just a big mess where everyone is trying to iteratively reason out all existence, with each person demanding things be exactly how they see the world. It’s ugly and not as productive as the tonnage of words might provide.

But stuff like this and the arguments against my pov make me entirely cynical. Apart from naming things after horrid idiots like Rob Ford, I don’t care where the name comes from. If you want to name your baby Apple, by all means. Rename everything with indigenous language; But I’m a dork in a forum of dorks who will spend days arguing about the finer points of wayfinding in PATH, but won’t allow critical discussion about the practicality of these names.

Which is I think where people’s cynicism comes in. Because it all starts to feel performative.

And like being a Marvel fan, I don’t even want to contribute to any criticism to something, because I know there will be some truly garbage racist people who’ll just feel empowered by that and use my argument for their bs.

I dunno man, I don’t study indigenous languages, but could there not have been a version of or another word that works in a more practical fashion?

And also, I hope everyone who’s coming out hard in defense of the name is paying to subscribe to Crave and CBC gem and watching all the great indigenous shows they stream. You can really support indigenous creators and artists this way.
 
Also, something I’m trying to catch myself on, that others might want to as well… I’m criticizing the practicality of the name, and not making fun of the name itself. That’s someone else’s language, just like to many around the world- English is.
 
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Parkdalian said:
I doubt that locals will still call it "Villiers Island" because most people wouldn't have any clue that is its temporary name - it only officially became an island in the last few months.

I like the new name! People can say "Tecumseth" and "Mississauga" and heck "Toronto" - we'll get used to "Ookwemin Minising"

(I do think people might mispronounce that first syllable as "Ooo" instead of "oh," though)
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Northern Light said:
I concur, but would go a touch further and say that it's important to choose a name that an English language speaker could phonetically sound out.

Toronto is fairly straight forward, and note that we anglicized the spelling from Tkaronto which would not be intuitive to an English speaker.

Likewise, Canada is derived from Kanata though that would seem straight forward to sound out.

But let's have another look at Mississauga, shall we?

In its original language the name is Misi-zaagiing

I fail to understand why we are adopting names that aren't easy to say, using the spelling of a language most don't speak.

We can put the original spelling of the original language in the fine print; but we ought to aim for a name that will be easily said and widely adopted.
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Can't see this ending up as anything other than Ookwemin. 3 syllables, and it's still acceptable to call a place "Black Cherry (trees)" especially with Cherry street running right there. There was definitely a lot of thought that went into picking the name.
 
My bingo card is starting to get filled up here...

...too difficult to pronounce; we've go plenty of indigenous names already; it's Sankofa Square all over again; the symbolism is really meaningless; people will just call it Villiers Island anyways; they didn't consult the public about this; it's more than 4 syllables...

...to me, it's a thoughtful name. We should stick with it, learn to adapt, evolve and move on.
 
I think it's a perfectly good name, not that hard to pronounce or remember, but that people will probably shorten it. It's hardly longer than "Algonquin Island" and people manage that just fine. When people start going there, I agree that it'll probably be "Ohkwaymin". Or Lower Donlands.
 
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