Was watching this and wondering what folks thought about what was said about Regent Park in regards to lessons that could be applied to Villiers.

He talks about “bringing the streets(roads) back” and how Regent Park had isolated itself (like, I dunno- an island), talks about choices they made in building a new urban community etc.

In some ways I’m amazed humans still can’t perfect this kind of thing, we’ve had centuries of urbanization to reflect on, and can now ai model every possible scenario like Dr. Strange on a 4Loko. So looking at Regent Park 1.0, 2.0, St. Jamestown, Crescent Town and CityPlace- are we gonna get Villiers right?

 
Yeah the funny thing for me is that when the old Regent Park was built you had similarly smart urban planners doing what they though was the right thing too!

They weren't like "Screw these people, let's put 'em in a hellscape!"

They thought, hey let's limit the roads going through here so that they have a sense of community etc... etc...

You can find all those old videos too.

Like you say the planners of the time always think what they're doing is for the best. They're not like, "Muhahahaha!" evil.

But then time often shows, oooh, maybe that wasn't the best way to do it after all.

I guarantee there are things being done right now with the best intentions that 50 or 100 years from now future planners will be shaking their heads and laughing at us for.
 
Is Regent Park (prior to revitalization) bad because of the lack of through streets and therefore isolation - or is it bad because this is coupled with a development that is entirely of one socioeconomic class, the lack of ownership by people living there and the slow but inexorable development of stigma? It'd think being an island on its' own isn't a determinant of whether it will be successful.

AoD
 
"Street grids are good" is one of the strongest ideas in City of Toronto urban design post-1997.

With the Regent Park and Alex Park revitalizations in particular, the city has been very concerned about restoring street grids and giving every building a clear street address. The underlying assumption is that a "superblock" is necessarily bad because of its spatial qualities.

At Villiers, the response has been to create a grid, but one that includes oceans of open space, insufficient density to support much retail, and every opportunity to get in a car and leave.

I'd argue this will bring about some of the same spatial problems that Regent Park had: a lack of density and a lack of commercial activity. Car-free terrain is unsuccessful if it is vaguely defined, and there are few people, and there is no reason for outsiders to pass through. Grid urbanism also fails under the same conditions.
 
Yeah the funny thing for me is that when the old Regent Park was built you had similarly smart urban planners doing what they though was the right thing too!

They weren't like "Screw these people, let's put 'em in a hellscape!"

They thought, hey let's limit the roads going through here so that they have a sense of community etc... etc...

You can find all those old videos too.

Like you say the planners of the time always think what they're doing is for the best. They're not like, "Muhahahaha!" evil.

But then time often shows, oooh, maybe that wasn't the best way to do it after all.

I guarantee there are things being done right now with the best intentions that 50 or 100 years from now future planners will be shaking their heads and laughing at us for.
Planners, either of the professional variety or the armchair kind, are the enemy of organic design. None of the greatest cities in the world -- say, Rome, Chester, England, Barcelona, Amsterdam, old Quebec City, even Brooklyn -- could be built today if the plans had to be first run past "planners" or elected municipal officials. All the greatest living arrangements we know were built under the widest freedoms. We wont list the mostly hideous failures of communism and its cousins. Expect to hear angry disagreement about my theory, but that's why we have so many hellscapes today.
 
"Street grids are good" is one of the strongest ideas in City of Toronto urban design post-1997.

True.
With the Regent Park and Alex Park revitalizations in particular, the city has been very concerned about restoring street grids and giving every building a clear street address.

True.

The underlying assumption is that a "superblock" is necessarily bad because of its spatial qualities.

Lets define spacial qualities...... but sure I'll take the position that super blocks are inherently bad.

At Villiers, the response has been to create a grid, but one that includes oceans of open space, insufficient density to support much retail,

Not true. The facts are completely inconsistent with this statement.

and every opportunity to get in a car and leave.

Also not true. Aside from the fact there will be far less parking than households, so a number of households will be active transportation/public transport dependent, there is remarkably little car access in/out of Villiers and if everyone tried to use it as rush hour there would be endless gridlock.

I'd argue this will bring about some of the same spatial problems that Regent Park had: a lack of density and a lack of commercial activity. Car-free terrain is unsuccessful if it is vaguely defined, and there are few people, and there is no reason for outsiders to pass through. Grid urbanism also fails under the same conditions.

There will be no shortage of people based on existing proposals.

****

There are flaws w/the Villiers plans, I agree some ROWs could be tightened and some street parking removed. I'd like shorter streetwalls in many locations as well.

The area is more car-centric as conceived than I would like, but that was the result of a choice not to serve it with higher-order transit (the LRT is not and will not be a subway substitute)

In order for the area to succeed commercially, it can't be isolated. For that to be true, the build-out of Queen's Quay East must occur before any development at Villiers, and Quayside and other proposals must arrive prior as well, animating Queen's Quay, and providing retail and other services.

Likewise, Cherry and Broadview and the key N-S connections, though the latter will be east of Villiers.

These need to be in place, with LRT and be at least partially, if not fully built out, before Villiers.

That means Villiers doesn't start residential build-out before the mid 2030s as things stand, and maybe later.

This is the problem of endless plans in lieu of substance, and people demanding every more re-writes of plans, rather than getting them right the first time, and beginning implementation.

****

There is no real corollary here to the original Regent Park which was entirely low-income, rent-geared-to-income housing, with an entirely inward-facing design that naturally excluded outsiders.

Villiers, as currently conceived will not be that.

There is an allusion to be made to St. Jamestown, however. This area will be even more dense than St. Jamestown, which is a problem, it will be somewhat cut-off from the outside, as St.Jamestown was, particularly on an E-W basis, in the former's case. But also, St. Jamestown was built as mixed income, but not mixed tenure, and private landlords quickly allowed the community to be beset by neglect.

A mixed tenure model reduces, but does not eliminate said risk.
 
Last edited:
Planners, either of the professional variety or the armchair kind, are the enemy of organic design. None of the greatest cities in the world -- say, Rome, Chester, England, Barcelona, Amsterdam, old Quebec City, even Brooklyn -- could be built today if the plans had to be first run past "planners" or elected municipal officials. All the greatest living arrangements we know were built under the widest freedoms. We wont list the mostly hideous failures of communism and its cousins. Expect to hear angry disagreement about my theory, but that's why we have so many hellscapes today.

What? LOL

The Paris of today is largely the product of Masterplanning from Hausmann in the mid 19th Century:


A good deal of Amsterdam was also master planned, the Canals didn't build themselves, neither did the parks:


The history of Barcelona certainly began before modern Urban Planning, but the bulk of it today derives from just that:


***

I'd be the first to advocate for allowing development to arrive over time, where feasible........and have different builders and architects involved to create variety.........

But we need not to get carried away with the idea that major cities spontaneously evolve...........Rome didn't either.
 
Last edited:
Now when they specifically say “streets” does that always mean cars? Because that’s what I’m hearing. If you don’t have streets for cars then your neighbourhood will become a slum like Regent Park 1.0, a statement which seems ridiculous.

And yeah, I’m always fascinated by the promotional video for Regent Park initially done by the NFB. Especially the “move here and your daughter won’t be harassed by the molester looking guy in the first floor of your flop house”.

But as someone mentioned, the initial project was with good intent and came of current day thinking and trends. And yeah, was more of a funding and maintenance problem than “we didn’t build car roads”

And that’s why I think we’re going to have regrets about the type of density that’s been pushed in recent years, and why we don’t have foresight in the “Information Age”

Every time a large tower gets put up, I imagine someone pushing a plunger from the top- expelling all the residents from the bottom onto the surrounding streets- and I think “okay, where do they all go?”. Dude on the Agenda even mentions that they can’t exactly force specific businesses to operate in developments, and the “deal” with Sobeys kinda proved that out.

So yeah, are we going to get Villiers right? Looking at the prices of the adjacent Aqualuna, it could be said it’s bound to be for the rich one way or another- a “bridged” community if you will.
 
Good discussion!!!

"Street Grids are Good" I think is important to remember.

So... I know we all hate cars. I know we should all move around the city on bicycles, walking or our beloved public transit.

However... let's think about the logistics next summer of getting to the new Snowy Owl park on Villiers Island when it opens.

Let's say you've got young kids that can't safely bicycle on the road/bike paths and can't walk super long distances. Let's say you live around Cabbagetown or Riverdale or Leslieville. How the heck do you take them to this awesome new park? There's virtually no street parking, maybe 5-10 spots once it's all done. So you're going get on transit? How is that going to go? It will be such a convoluted mess of transfers that it would take almost 45 minutes to an hour to get there. It's going to be awful.

This forum hates to hear it, but families with young kids NEED parking. It's just misery to try and get to somewhere without it. Yes it can be done, but my goodness it's barely worth it by the time you get there.
 
This forum hates to hear it, but families with young kids NEED parking. It's just misery to try and get to somewhere without it. Yes it can be done, but my goodness it's barely worth it by the time you get there.
I have a young kid and we use our car less than weekly. I prefer taking transit or biking (though I don't really bike when it's less than about 5 degrees, except for really short trips) than sitting in traffic. Traffic is misery to me.

The problem is when they don't put either parking or transit, which is why all of us here are always going on about building this streetcar. If they did that, a lot more families could visit easily than can be accommodated with streets and parking.
 
Now when they specifically say “streets” does that always mean cars? Because that’s what I’m hearing. If you don’t have streets for cars then your neighbourhood will become a slum like Regent Park 1.0, a statement which seems ridiculous.

It's more like, "If you don't have streets for cars everywhere, the neighbourhood won't function," which I have been told explicitly by people involved in the project. And in Toronto right now, a new public street means a street with cars, without exception.

For the record this island is 39ha, including the parks, which is the right way to think about it, and is planned to have ~15,000 people. If it's built as planned, the public realm is going to feel very empty and retail is not going to do well, if ever, until the whole neigjbourhood is built.
 
For the record this island is 39ha, including the parks, which is the right way to think about it,

For the record, this is not the way to think about it.

and is planned to have ~15,000 people. If it's built as planned, the public realm is going to feel very empty and retail is not going to do well, if ever, until the whole neigjbourhood is built.

That certainly is possible, for reasons discussed above, but its really dependent on the development and phasing of adjacent lands.

See the new fantasy proposal for the Hearn that's out this morning.

Based on infrastructure that doesn't exist, requires vast public subsidies, and land swaps...........

And even has the nerve to suggest elementary aged kids (who theoretically might live in this fantasy community) should take the (not yet existing Broadview LRT up to Queen Alexandra Elementary to go to school, a mere 2.2km away. LOL While High School aged kids will apparently go to Riverdale Collegiate, some 4km+ away with no obvious way to reach same by transit.
 
Why are school's always a total after-thought with these large developments? We force developers to build parks with their projects but not schools? How can the city allow 15,000 new people but no school? Not saying developer should build and run the school. Obviously that's TDSB's job, but why isn't this part of the project's approval stage??? You see signs with every new development downtown that say, "ATTENTION YOUR KIDS WILL HAVE NO SCHOOL IF YOU BUY HERE" that's nuts.
 
The main problem is that the city approves developments (even, in some cases, asking for space to be reserved for schools) but the province builds schools. And for some reason, they don’t get together and talk about coordinating to solve the problem. It’s so stupid.
 

Back
Top