[picard102]

If these transit projects were left up to the city of Toronto to get built, they would never have seen the light of day. You should thank Doug Ford for taking over these projects.

Good thing Metrolinx thought the DRL was a priority as well.
And before you spin another tale about how we should thank Ford for Metrolinx or some other revisionist nonsense, Metrolinx wasn't created by Ford.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Thanks to the work done before Doug got elected.

This is a bit revisionist - especially relating to rapid transit access to Ontario Place / Exhibition.

Prior to Ford:

1. The Relief Line was planned as an expensive, bloated project running only from Pape to Osgoode. No extension to Exhibition or Eglinton.
2. Eglinton west was planned as an above-ground LRT which was recieving heavy criticism for slow travel times which wouldn't have improved over existing bus travel times.
3. Yonge North was planned but going nowhere with no real work done on it in years
4. Scarborough Subway had been lurching along as a bloated, single-stop line with construction start constantly being pushed back

Now all four are under construction.

Love of hate Ford - his progress on actually building transit expansion in Toronto is nothing short of remarkable and will leave a generational impact on the city. It is by far the largest legacy of his government.

Relating to the relief line especially, a western extension of the line wasn't even on the City's radar. The city had effectively 0 plans to address poor mobility in the west end of downtown.

 

[Northern Light]

This is a bit revisionist - especially relating to rapid transit access to Ontario Place / Exhibition.

Prior to Ford:

1. The Relief Line was planned as an expensive, bloated project running only from Pape to Osgoode.

It was not unusually expensive, and cheaper per Km than the Ontario Line.

No extension to Exhibition or Eglinton.

An extension to Eglinton was being actively studied, Pape was the Phase 1 terminus.

3. Yonge North was planned but going nowhere with no real work done on it in years

Still hasn't. (beyond design and property). Real work should begin soon. Minus Cummer Station it would seem, and at vastly more per km than the previous iteration which has a better route.

4. Scarborough Subway had been lurching along as a bloated, single-stop line with construction start constantly being pushed back

Scarborough had loads of different iterations through time because of City Council and Mayoral hijinx......one of those Mayors was a fella with the name Ford......whose brother was on that Council.

Now all four are under construction.

Three.......... Yonge North cannot be described as under construction currently.

Love of hate Ford - his progress on actually building transit expansion in Toronto is nothing short of remarkable and will leave a generational impact on the city. It is by far the largest legacy of his government.

Disagree, nothing remarkable about it............... the Liberals before him started work on Crosstown, a 22km long project; they delivered the TYSSE and UPX, the Georgetown South GO upgrades, the 3rd track on Lakeshore East GO, 15-minute weekday service on Lakeshore GO (which we no longer have because of Ford's incredibly unwise move of building a joint corridor, which is a colossal, generational mistake, just like the REM / Mt. Royal tunnel in Montreal).

Relating to the relief line especially, a western extension of the line wasn't even on the City's radar. The city had effectively 0 plans to address poor mobility in the west end of downtown.

The diversion to Exhibition is also an incorrect move. Yes, eventually, the line should have gone further west, and it would have. But Ford chose the wrong Terminus.

 

[picard102]

This is a bit revisionist - especially relating to rapid transit access to Ontario Place / Exhibition.

It's not though. The only thing of value Ford can be said to have done with the OL vs DRL, is include phase 2 stations. Diverting to Exhibition is not a value add.
Yonge was always going to be pushed back until the DRL or Eglington were underway, but now it's another boondoggle thanks to Ford.
Scarborough is another Ford family disaster.

 

[Civdis]

This is a bit revisionist - especially relating to rapid transit access to Ontario Place / Exhibition.

Prior to Ford:

1. The Relief Line was planned as an expensive, bloated project running only from Pape to Osgoode. No extension to Exhibition or Eglinton.
2. Eglinton west was planned as an above-ground LRT which was recieving heavy criticism for slow travel times which wouldn't have improved over existing bus travel times.
3. Yonge North was planned but going nowhere with no real work done on it in years
4. Scarborough Subway had been lurching along as a bloated, single-stop line with construction start constantly being pushed back

Now all four are under construction.

Love of hate Ford - his progress on actually building transit expansion in Toronto is nothing short of remarkable and will leave a generational impact on the city. It is by far the largest legacy of his government.

Relating to the relief line especially, a western extension of the line wasn't even on the City's radar. The city had effectively 0 plans to address poor mobility in the west end of downtown.

Exactly, thanks for articulating this Innsertnamehere! That is the response I was too lazy to draft to Northern Light

 

[Civdis]

It was not unusually expensive, and cheaper per Km than the Ontario Line.



An extension to Eglinton was being actively studied, Pape was the Phase 1 terminus.



Still hasn't. (beyond design and property). Real work should begin soon. Minus Cummer Station it would seem, and at vastly more per km than the previous iteration which has a better route.



Scarborough had loads of different iterations through time because of City Council and Mayoral hijinx......one of those Mayors was a fella with the name Ford......whose brother was on that Council.



Three.......... Yonge North cannot be described as under construction currently.



Disagree, nothing remarkable about it............... the Liberals before him started work on Crosstown, a 22km long project; they delivered the TYSSE and UPX, the Georgetown South GO upgrades, the 3rd track on Lakeshore East GO, 15-minute weekday service on Lakeshore GO (which we no longer have because of Ford's incredibly unwise move of building a joint corridor, which is a colossal, generational mistake, just like the REM / Mt. Royal tunnel in Montreal).



The diversion to Exhibition is also an incorrect move. Yes, eventually, the line should have gone further west, and it would have. But Ford chose the wrong Terminus.

What would be the correct terminus in your view?

 

[Northern Light]

What would be the correct terminus in your view?

Lets start w/the notion that there is a need to prioritize finite dollars.

As such, the initial priority was downtown to Eglinton, in order to relieve traffic on Line 1 and at Yonge-Bloor in particular.

That said, once you decide to go west, the logical extension serves either existing or prospective trip generators, be they residential or employment.

Broadly, I think we can agree Liberty Village is an over-built, super-dense node in need of better transit. Though, if you have GO service from Exhibition to Downtown already, and you're able to speed that up, maybe add an intermediate stop at Spadina, I don't see a lot of value in duplicating that.

You also have a GO Station going in on the K-W line as well.

So if the subway were to serve Liberty, I'd be inclined to keep it under King.

There is an argument to be made for sticking to Queen, but given more current and immediately prospective density............taking it one station at a time......

I would have gone Queen-Spadina (as is currently the case); but I think I would have favoured Queen-Bathurst (or Richmond) next, before hitting King-Bathurst (as is the case now); but then I would have gone directly west, rather than to Exhibtion Place which is very low density and already served by a transit connection to downtown.

King-Dufferin would have been a logical stopping point, before a move further west in the very long term.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

...but we have to thank Doug for making dumb mistakes even if they're well meaning dumb mistakes. /s

 

[innsertnamehere]

It was not unusually expensive, and cheaper per Km than the Ontario Line.



An extension to Eglinton was being actively studied, Pape was the Phase 1 terminus.



Still hasn't. (beyond design and property). Real work should begin soon. Minus Cummer Station it would seem, and at vastly more per km than the previous iteration which has a better route.



Scarborough had loads of different iterations through time because of City Council and Mayoral hijinx......one of those Mayors was a fella with the name Ford......whose brother was on that Council.



Three.......... Yonge North cannot be described as under construction currently.



Disagree, nothing remarkable about it............... the Liberals before him started work on Crosstown, a 22km long project; they delivered the TYSSE and UPX, the Georgetown South GO upgrades, the 3rd track on Lakeshore East GO, 15-minute weekday service on Lakeshore GO (which we no longer have because of Ford's incredibly unwise move of building a joint corridor, which is a colossal, generational mistake, just like the REM / Mt. Royal tunnel in Montreal).



The diversion to Exhibition is also an incorrect move. Yes, eventually, the line should have gone further west, and it would have. But Ford chose the wrong Terminus.

The Relief line as originally planned had a budget of $6.8 billion for ~6.3km of line, or about $1,080 per km. The Ontario Line has a budget of $10.4 billion for 15.6km of line, or about $666m/km. So yes, it is substantially cheaper, by about 40%.

The City had preliminary studies going out for an eventual extension to the north, correct. This was not planned to occur for many years however, likely not until well into the 2040's. The western extension was not on anybody's radar however and the City had no (public) plans to address transit mobility in the west end despite it being the location of a significant amount of employment and residential growth in the city.

Preliminary work is underway on Yonge - specifically at Finch Station to prep for the connection. Major work's aren't happening, but there is actual construction contracts, no matter how minor, underway relating to the extension.

Yes, Scarborough is well politicized and is the line least attributable to Doug as the City was approaching construction on the line when the province took it over. The Province did return it to a more rational design however without a palatial STC station and reintroducing the 3-stop design.

The Liberals promised big, for sure. They trickled actual funding dollars out however, much like how Doug is promising big on highways but trickling actual funding dollars out today. The 15 years the Liberals were in power featured one subway extension and the Crosstown starting. They also promised Finch and strung out funding for nearly a decade before signing the dotted line. They initiated GO expansion as well. Not a terrible legacy, but over their 15 years in government surprisingly little made it to hard construction. It's a stark difference compared to the Ford Government which has 3-4 subway lines (depending on how you define "construction") underway with 4 years of announcing them. It's a stark difference compared to the Liberals who reached construction start on two lines in 15 years.

The Joint Corridor is fine. There is a temporary reduction in 15 minute service during construction staging but it will be restored ten-fold post construction. With HFR working through, VIA frequencies will be redirected off of the joint corridor soon anyway and reduce pressure on the line. 3 tracks is more than enough to handle LSE and Stouffville services.

How is Exhibition an incorrect move? It creates a Union-Station-West of a sorts which relieves pressure on the actual Union Station while bringing rapid transit access to Liberty Village and a key entertainment centre which drives huge crowds. Plus it aligns the OL for a future westward extension at grade along the rail corridor, which enables much more cost-effective transit expansion.

 

[Northern Light]

The Relief line as originally planned had a budget of $6.8 billion for ~6.3km of line, or about $1,080 per km. The Ontario Line has a budget of $10.4 billion for 15.6km of line, or about $666m/km. So yes, it is substantially cheaper, by about 40%.

The actual construction budget for the Ontario Line, excluding operations and maintenance is over 20B hard numbers, I'm sure. That's not cheaper at all. To be fair, the Relief Line would have had some cost inflation, but there's no way the Ontario Line isn't more expensive. The initial estimates were a crock.

The City had preliminary studies going out for an eventual extension to the north, correct. This was not planned to occur for many years however, likely not until well into the 2040's.

Not the case. I was in on the conversations. Just the same way I previewed the Sheppard Subway process and the more recent options here at UT. I get sneak peeks at many things.

The western extension was not on anybody's radar however and the City had no (public) plans to address transit mobility in the west end despite it being the location of a significant amount of employment and residential growth in the city.

That is accurate.

Preliminary work is underway on Yonge - specifically at Finch Station to prep for the connection. Major work's aren't happening, but there is actual construction contracts, no matter how minor, underway relating to the extension.

The work is fairly inconsequential. There is no work underway on tunnels, track, yards, or stations.

Yes, Scarborough is well politicized and is the line least attributable to Doug as the City was approaching construction on the line when the province took it over. The Province did return it to a more rational design however without a palatial STC station and reintroducing the 3-stop design.

That's fair; though it should have been 4 stops with one at Eglinton/Brimley, but I digress.

The Joint Corridor is fine. There is a temporary reduction in 15 minute service during construction staging but it will be restored ten-fold post construction. With HFR working through, VIA frequencies will be redirected off of the joint corridor soon anyway and reduce pressure on the line. 3 tracks is more than enough to handle LSE and Stouffville services.

VIA services originating out of Kingston will not be routed north and back down Bala.

The O/L trackage does run as far as the Cherry Street Portal and so does have some impact on any potential HFR service in terms of corridor limitations. Though there are ways to mitigate this, it would have been easier and cheaper if the O/L went under the River.

How is Exhibition an incorrect move? It creates a Union-Station-West of a sorts which relieves pressure on the actual Union Station while bringing rapid transit access to Liberty Village and a key entertainment centre which drives huge crowds. Plus it aligns the OL for a future westward extension at grade along the rail corridor, which enables much more cost-effective transit expansion.

I answer that above; but will add here, that I don't feel Exhibition will ever divert significant traffic away from Union, the O/L will arrive at King/Bathurst and Queen/Spadina post-transfer, neither of which are large destinations for those from west. So its a transfer, a slower run, and then you end up at the extreme north of the Financial District, which will serve some, but anyone based south of Adelaide will find travelling to Union quicker.

******

That said we've both really been diverted from the thread topic here, which is Ontario Place. We should get back to that.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

...at the end of the day it all goes back to what's going on here at OP, so it's all good, IMO.

 

[Civdis]

Lets start w/the notion that there is a need to prioritize finite dollars.

As such, the initial priority was downtown to Eglinton, in order to relieve traffic on Line 1 and at Yonge-Bloor in particular.

That said, once you decide to go west, the logical extension serves either existing or prospective trip generators, be they residential or employment.

Broadly, I think we can agree Liberty Village is an over-built, super-dense node in need of better transit. Though, if you have GO service from Exhibition to Downtown already, and you're able to speed that up, maybe add an intermediate stop at Spadina, I don't see a lot of value in duplicating that.

You also have a GO Station going in on the K-W line as well.

So if the subway were to serve Liberty, I'd be inclined to keep it under King.

There is an argument to be made for sticking to Queen, but given more current and immediately prospective density............taking it one station at a time......

I would have gone Queen-Spadina (as is currently the case); but I think I would have favoured Queen-Bathurst (or Richmond) next, before hitting King-Bathurst (as is the case now); but then I would have gone directly west, rather than to Exhibtion Place which is very low density and already served by a transit connection to downtown.

King-Dufferin would have been a logical stopping point, before a move further west in the very long term.

You make some valid points. I still believe connecting Exhibition to the subway system provides the central city with way better access to the exhibition grounds (5 pro sports teams, Convention Centre, Budweiser Stage, Ontario Place, and of course The Ex), not to mention that this will be an amazing transfer point for Lakeshore West Go passengers to transfer.

 

[generalcanada]

Doug Ford government’s plan to move Ontario Place sewer away from megaspa’s planned beach — and into rowing and swimming area — has locals fuming

The plan to redirect the sewage into a shallow channel used by swimmers and rowers is drawing condemnation from locals, including a city councillor and the head of the chief

www.thestar.com

So they were looking at that CSO pipe, because it always was going to be a problem.
You really have to wonder which one is the lesser of the 2 evils.
Polluting a swimming channel, or polluting a public beach.
Noteworthy that it's an interim solution until they can extend the pipes further out into the water
Apperently some pipes are already damaged and stuff leaks into the channel anyway

 

[hawc]

 

[JasonParis]

Ontario North Naaaah!