[11th]

I think you overestimate the number of people who would give up a single-seat ride, to save a couple of minutes. Especially given how often the second or third vehicle doesn't appear. One in hand is worth two in the bush (or perhaps a 501 in hand is worth a 3 in the tunnel) .

Riverside/Leslieville is a whole different story (I don't think many will be backtracking from busy spots like Broadview and River, in the wrong direction to the subway). Nor do I think someone who wants to go to Queen/Ossington will head due south to Exhibition station.

Will someone coming on a cold windy day from Queen and Woodbine to Ontario (to use a ride I used to take) get off at Leslieville, trapse through the slush to the station, stand on a cold windy platform, and then come out at Moss Park, go up (4?) flights of escalators, and traipse back to Ontario? The subway ride might be 6 minutes, but it will be a couple of minute to get to the station, and at least 5 minutes to get out and back to Ontario. That's 13 minutes + whatever you wait for a train. Let's say 2 minutes. About 15 minutes total. Right now (5 pm Saturday) the schedule says that's a 16-minute trip if you stay on the streetcar. With little risk that there is a "trespasser at track level". At peak, 8 AM on Tuesday morning it's only a 17-minute trip on the streetcar! And 18-minutes on Tuesday at 5 pm.

Meanwhile, you've already got a seat on the streetcar; and getting on near downtown, and what I assume will be cattle cars, you'll be standing on the subway train.

Then why in London do you see so many buses running on a road, with a tube line under it? (because if you are only going 5 bus stops, you'll get there, before you walk (or more likely elevator) down to the station platform, go one or two stops, and then walk (or elevate) back up again?

Why don't we see a lot more people get off the subway at Main Street and walk to Danforth GO.

Your example of going from Woodbine to Ontario St. will remain a streetcar trip because the distance between Leslieville station and Ontario St. is short (< 2 km). Going to Ossington or even Spadina, however, it will be quicker transerfering onto OL at Leslieville. Also as I recall, the elevated platforms on OL will be enclosed.

 

[nfitz]

Signs won't work. All you have to do is go to King Street and see how many drivers ignore and/or are ignorant of the signage.

And yet King is so much faster than Queen, even with the limited enforcement.

Meanwhile the signage is horiffically poor. Where's the red paint? Where's the curbs and stuff? Where's the changes so they can get up clearer signage, eliminate the green lights, turn on electronic no-entry signs? That would all help.

But the point is moot. Queen Street is not going to get a transit ROW.

Why not? Bathurst just got one.

Your example of going from Woodbine to Ontario St. will remain a streetcar trip because the distance between Leslieville station and Ontario St. is short (< 2 km). Going to Ossington or even Spadina, however, it will be quicker transerfering onto OL at Leslieville.

From Woodbine I'm already taking the bus to the subway, then down the Ossington bus. At least at peak - it can save a half-hour.

 

[kotsy]

Lower Don Crossing bridge update:

Riverside/Leslieville Station. The abutment from the old bridge on the South side is no more.

Corktown Station:

 

[Natika33]

I would be in favour of limited traffic on Queen from Yonge to Spadina. It solves the rest of the issues brought up. If I'm at Queen and Yonge and I need to get to Queen and Spadina, would I go down to the subway or would I get on the 501 and sit through mixed traffic? Of course I would choose the subway. But remove the cars from Yonge to Spadina and that's an easy choice: I'd get on the streetcar for 5 local stops.

This should be an easily sellable premise from Victoria to University because by the time Line 3 opens, Queen Street from Victoria to Bay will have been shut down for over 5 years. Driver behaviour has already changed in just these first few years. Traffic on the stretch of Queen from Bay to University is minuscule because drivers no longer use it to cross the city E-W due to the blockage at Bay St.

As has been brought up before, closing Queen Street in front of the Sheraton and Nathan Phillips entirely to cars is difficult because of parking entrances but it could be turned into a narrow woonerf with no cars allowed in the central streetcar lane.

University to Spadina would require more political capital to pull off, specially with the subway already under Queen Street.



I will point out that King Street had reserved lanes with just signage for decades but nobody respected it. Yes, before the King Street Pilot centre lanes were reserved for streetcars but never enforced. You'd need to change the road to get cars out of the streetcar lane and to discourage car traffic on Queen.

I like this idea on the main. Question regarding the parking at Nathan Phillips... is that the only possible entrance? Expensive likely, but would it be possible to move the entrance to Bay or University?

 

[TossYourJacket]

But the point is moot. Queen Street is not going to get a transit ROW.

The City has previously recommended implementing the King St rules on both Queen and College (as well as the entire length of King). At the time this was projected for somewhere around 2028, I'm sure it's been delayed as everything is around here, but there absolutely has been some looking into improving the transit priority on Queen.

The idea we cannot build a transit priority corridor above a subway, that prioritizes local transit, is just defeatism. It probably won't happen with Ford in Queen's Park but he won't be there forever.

 

[JasonParis]

I can also see the current 501 diversion being made permanent. No, not an ROW, but an ability to turn an important part of downtown into more of a pedestrian-focussed realm.

 

[nfitz]

I can also see the current 501 diversion being made permanent. No, not an ROW, but an ability to turn an important part of downtown into more of a pedestrian-focussed realm.

I'm guessing you haven't tried to transfer from the subway to the westbound 501. Or is there magic signage underground I never found.

I haven't tried eastbound, but I'd imagine that's even more of a challenge ... probably quicker to change at King, or walk to (Jarvis?).

 

[crs1026]

Where are the components for the Don River bridge being fabricated? I don't see an abundance of materiel in the laydown area in @kotsy 's latest images.....just-in-time delivery ?

- Paul

 

[Transportfan]

Bloor-Danforth didn't keep its streetcars, nor did Yonge. There's a reality check in that.

- Paul

Preservationists are more militant today than back then.

 

[nfitz]

Preservationists are more militant today than back then.

I don't think that's the answer. Yonge lost it's streetcars because the entire length of Yonge in the then city of Toronto got a 7-km and 12-station subway on day one with frequent stops. Bloor-Danforth lost it's streetcars along about 16-km from Jane to near Victoria Park, through the entire length of the city of Toronto - replaced by a 25-station subway (and more stops where the streetcar never went).

All we are talking about on Queen is about 4 stations and 2 kilometres from Moss Park to Spadina! (and the odd "orphaned" station 2-km further east at De Grassi).

If they had built a 14-km subway along Queen Street from Victoria Park to Roncesvalles, with 15 to 20 stations; then yes, get rid of the streetcar.

It's not "preservationists". It's that you can go at most 2 km along Queen before you have to switch. Do you really make people transfer twice to go 2 km?

 

[ARG1]

I don't think that's the answer. Yonge lost it's streetcars because the entire length of Yonge in the then city of Toronto got a 7-km and 12-station subway on day one with frequent stops. Bloor-Danforth lost it's streetcars along about 16-km from Jane to near Victoria Park, through the entire length of the city of Toronto - replaced by a 25-station subway (and more stops where the streetcar never went).

All we are talking about on Queen is about 4 stations and 2 kilometres from Moss Park to Spadina! (and the odd "orphaned" station 2-km further east at De Grassi).

If they had built a 14-km subway along Queen Street from Victoria Park to Roncesvalles, with 15 to 20 stations; then yes, get rid of the streetcar.

It's not "preservationists". It's that you can go at most 2 km along Queen before you have to switch. Do you really make people transfer twice to go 2 km?

Precisely. And also, the Ontario Line is a completely different beast from Yonge and BD. The latter are cut and cover sub-surface subways where the platforms are 1-2 set of steps away from street level. They're extremely easy to access and waste little time. The Ontario Line meanwhile will be a massive multi story deep bore that will take several minutes just to reach the platform level. It's an entirely different beast design wise from the older subways.

 

[TorontoPotential]

Let’s just all pray the OL will actually be operational soon. It needs to be operational before we can speculate on traffic patterns and make lasting decisions. In the meantime. Hope the city can kill off street parking on all streetcar routes and move on with things….

 

[smallspy]

Bloor-Danforth didn't keep its streetcars, nor did Yonge. There's a reality check in that.

- Paul

If you look at how those lines were built as compared to the ones after, it's pretty easy to figure out why.

The original Yonge Line, the University Line, and the majority of the Bloor-Danforth Line were designed from the outset as being designed to be used by local and long-distance users. Thus the frequent stop spacing, and the lack of need to retain any surface transit options. That a surface bus put back on the southern half of Yonge at all was more due to the complaints about the removal of streetcars after the opening of the subway.

It wasn't until the North Yonge extensions with their fewer stops spaced further apart that it realized that it would be required to keep some sort of surface transit option along with the subways running underneath. And we've seen that since with Sheppard and now the Ontario Line.

Dan

 

[dob467]

Signs won't work. All you have to do is go to King Street and see how many drivers ignore and/or are ignorant of the signage. You might as well do nothing. We have decades of streetcar ROW signage on King Street to prove this point.

But the point is moot. Queen Street is not going to get a transit ROW. Like @McGillicuddy points out…

… once there’s a subway running under Queen it would be a hard, if not impossible sell to also get cars banned or even a car lane removed immediately above the subway line along the same street.

Future pro-car municipal leaders and a particular present Provincial leader will see that as double dipping and demand the end of transit “in the way of cars”. You can bet on it.

The Ford government isn’t building transit because he loves transit, pro-car governments build transit to get transit out of the way of cars. It’s been done for decades. Rob Ford wanted underground subways subways subways not because he liked transit (he was red faced against LRTs and streetcars) he wanted transit underground so streetcars wouldn’t be in the way of his car.

After the Ontario Line opens, the 501 as we know it has its fate sealed. It’s just a matter of time. What we can do now is ensure that the Queen Streetcar serves another purpose as to avoid that fate.

There's large swaths of Queen that will be far from the Ontario line. Anything west of Spadina for example. Though I could see an east bound 501 turning south there once the station at Queen Spadina opens.

 

[nightstreak]

Why not? Bathurst just got one.

Bathurst doesn't have a multibillion dollar subway line running under it. Pro-car conservatives build transit to get transit out of the way of cars.

There's large swaths of Queen that will be far from the Ontario line. Anything west of Spadina for example. Though I could see an east bound 501 turning south there once the station at Queen Spadina opens.

I'm not suggesting the 501 be eliminated, only that it be reconfigured to reinvent its purpose so it doesn't fall victim to political death sentence for being redundant. Some years back, our resident transit expert Steve Munro advocated for splitting the 501 in two to avoid the cascading of issues down a 24km line in mixed traffic when something happens at any point along the way. That recommendation paired with the dual role of a downtown subway line performs — rapid cross downtown jumps and well spaced local hops — has convinced me that this is not only the correct approach but inevitable, if not planned before the line opens, will become evident once passengers are choosing the faster and more reliable subway and leaving the 501 empty through downtown.