[sixrings]

Port Credit, like other similar historical lakefront ports (Oakville, Burlington to the west) we’re founded when boat access was the only high speed connection between centres and are now constrained by historical geography - rivers, the major railroads that followed settlement, the Developement of suburbs and the major highways (QEW) and historical neighbourhoods. And yes, you will encounter a body of the neighbourhood that is resistant to change. So change does move at a slower pace but it is happening. Port Credit and Burlington are examples.

Good or Bad, Port Credit was demolishing period homes and erecting apt blocks from the 60‘s. Is it or was it a substantially better place to live? I am sure many would debate that, but there are now legacies that can be learned from.

Greenfield sites from the 60’s and 70’s and beyond allow for much more creativity if political leadership follows the images urban planners from those decades often have.

One of the wishes I have is that I had retained some of the volumes of early planning conceptions of Mississauga. My father used to bring them home and I would pour through them. So I can tell you that a light rail or similar system running along Hwy 10/Hurontario is not a new concept.

I can also remember that Cooksville (Hwy 5 Dundas and Hwy 10) was to be an urban node with rail connections, and that concept has disintegrated into the mess it is now.

Oakville now has their Midtown, Bronte, Palermo (disaster), North West, Hospital and North East planning districts, which are a combination of brownfield; greenfield and mixed heritages underway. And further to the west, Waterdown is one large building site.

All of these planning districts centering on Dundas lack the heavy rail commuting option or some sort of a higher speed commuting option (outside of the car based 407) with the exception of the Cooksville/MCC/Hwy 10 connection. That is a weakness.

New idea or old idea what matters is that hurontario is happening now. We can dwell on the past but just like in Scarborough people wouldn’t move STC to Kennedy road and eglinton, square one, it’s library, it’s city hall, it’s dozen office building, the living arts centre are not moving to cooksville or port credit. The more density that comes to mcc the more push at least in the area will be for more amenities and offices.

 

[SashaLemon]

University avenue and lakeshore are practically urban free ways as well. The point is the car is king in Toronto as well. You guys are burying a lrt in eglinton west because guess what the car is king. Sheppard east lrt is cancelled because car is king in Scarborough. Don’t act too pretentious. Toronto isn’t exactly old Quebec City. A large part of it is pretty dang car centric.

It's still North America, but Toronto is literally #2 in the US/Canada for least car dependent. (New York #1 of course.) Yes cars are still in big. We have suburban mayors still. We basically just need a North York line, and something in Etobicoke and Scarborough.
Also there are real advantages to having grade separation. The actual stupid thing is that it should of been elevated in the extension. And also in the east. Why build a line 70+% grade separated and then put it at grade? There goes the chance at making it automated...

So like, yeah, Toronto is working on it. One little surface LRT and a BRT line going the other way is not going to cut it. There basically needs to be a radical shift in what you can build. I'm talking doing something at the provincial level like they did in California with SB9 and SB10. That would help ALL of us build the density (or at least start to, there are some other laws we need.) that actually supports great public transit. I would like to see in the future, for example, Line 5 to MCC, maybe even Line 2 to MCC, why not. Build new light metros through, at the same time as this increasing density.
In the whole GTA!
Instead of Manhattanization, lets strive for Londonization! Average density of 5,666/km2. (Old Toronto is 1.4x as dense, York is 1.09x as dense, East York is almost spot on, North York would only have to increase by 1.15x. Just to give you an idea of the density I am suggesting.) Now as we are increasing this density we build out modern rapid transit lines. Which should be automated light metros since we are building them in the modern age. If you look at London, they have tube stations and lines all across their vast "suburbs". Not to mention the overground, the new Elizabeth Line...
It's not like we are a tiny region, the GTA has 6,712,341 people, compared to London's 9,002,488. Lets put the density in, house more people, and build transit!!

Plus mixed use, plus proper cycling stuff (London gets that wrong also), plus have bigger density around GO Stations....

 

[sixrings]

It's still North America, but Toronto is literally #2 in the US/Canada for least car dependent. (New York #1 of course.) Yes cars are still in big. We have suburban mayors still. We basically just need a North York line, and something in Etobicoke and Scarborough.
Also there are real advantages to having grade separation. The actual stupid thing is that it should of been elevated in the extension. And also in the east. Why build a line 70+% grade separated and then put it at grade? There goes the chance at making it automated...

So like, yeah, Toronto is working on it. One little surface LRT and a BRT line going the other way is not going to cut it. There basically needs to be a radical shift in what you can build. I'm talking doing something at the provincial level like they did in California with SB9 and SB10. That would help ALL of us build the density (or at least start to, there are some other laws we need.) that actually supports great public transit. I would like to see in the future, for example, Line 5 to MCC, maybe even Line 2 to MCC, why not. Build new light metros through, at the same time as this increasing density.
In the whole GTA!
Instead of Manhattanization, lets strive for Londonization! Average density of 5,666/km2. (Old Toronto is 1.4x as dense, York is 1.09x as dense, East York is almost spot on, North York would only have to increase by 1.15x. Just to give you an idea of the density I am suggesting.) Now as we are increasing this density we build out modern rapid transit lines. Which should be automated light metros since we are building them in the modern age. If you look at London, they have tube stations and lines all across their vast "suburbs". Not to mention the overground, the new Elizabeth Line...
It's not like we are a tiny region, the GTA has 6,712,341 people, compared to London's 9,002,488. Lets put the density in, house more people, and build transit!!

Plus mixed use, plus proper cycling stuff (London gets that wrong also), plus have bigger density around GO Stations....

You have a mayor who lives at avenue road and bloor. Before ford you had muller who lived on the Yonge line. Don’t blame everything on suburban mayors. The fact is a very small portion of Toronto is downtown, walkable, and or bike friendly. Just like a small portion of Mississauga is in the hurontario burnamthorpe area. You have to start somewhere and we are building a huronontario line. It’s something. Do I ever expect Mississauga to become toronto NO. But toronto will also never become NYC. Maybe NYC people should come on the Toronto threads and tell them how far behind they are. Worry about toronto. Mississauga s will worry about Mississauga.

 

[SashaLemon]

You have a mayor who lives at avenue road and bloor. Before ford you had muller who lived on the Yonge line. Don’t blame everything on suburban mayors. The fact is a very small portion of Toronto is downtown, walkable, and or bike friendly. Just like a small portion of Mississauga is in the hurontario burnamthorpe area. You have to start somewhere and we are building a huronontario line. It’s something. Do I ever expect Mississauga to become toronto NO. But toronto will also never become NYC. Maybe NYC people should come on the Toronto threads and tell them how far behind they are. Worry about toronto. Mississauga s will worry about Mississauga.

Comparing a "small portion of Toronto" with a "small portion of Mississauga" is laughable. Much more of Toronto is walkable then Mississauga is.

I was being positive in most of my post, why are you mad.
I'm not trying to make everything like New York. (Which by the way, NYC is not all Manhattan. Old Toronto is basically the same size and density as Queens!)

What, should New York go and tell those stinky Europeans to be more dense? No. European cities are quite dense without needing much in the way of skyscrapers.

 

[sixrings]

Comparing a "small portion of Toronto" with a "small portion of Mississauga" is laughable. Much more of Toronto is walkable then Mississauga is.

I was being positive in most of my post, why are you mad.
I'm not trying to make everything like New York. (Which by the way, NYC is not all Manhattan. Old Toronto is basically the same size and density as Queens!)

What, should New York go and tell those stinky Europeans to be more dense? No. European cities are quite dense without needing much in the way of skyscrapers.

You literally started the conversation calling places other than Toronto “fake” downtowns. If you don’t like them sure that’s fine. But it’s inflammatory language and if you didn’t want people to be defensive than perhaps you should have been more gentle in your tone. I’m sure there will be plenty of people who enjoy living at VCC just as much as MCC. If it’s not your cup of tea that’s fine then either be gentle in your tone, move along or expect some push back.

My family and friends from London uk and New York City don’t just randomly interject how fake Toronto is because they are busy enjoying their cities. Perhaps you should go enjoy Toronto instead of spending time mocking what you perceive as lesser than your own home.

 

[sixrings]

All these fake "new downtowns" in Mississauga, Vaughn, whatever just have like massive boulevards that are practically urban freeways. The public realm is just overall awful most of the time. The car is still king despite an attempt at urbanism. It is truly the Dubai school of urban planning...

Please let me know where the positivity in this post is?

 

[SashaLemon]

You literally started the conversation calling places other than Toronto “fake” downtowns. If you don’t like them sure that’s fine. But it’s inflammatory language and if you didn’t want people to be defensive than perhaps you should have been more gentle in your tone. I’m sure there will be plenty of people who enjoy living at VCC just as much as MCC. If it’s not your cup of tea that’s fine then either be gentle in your tone, move along or expect some push back.

My family and friends from London uk and New York City don’t just randomly interject how fake Toronto is because they are busy enjoying their cities. Perhaps you should go enjoy Toronto instead of spending time mocking what you perceive as lesser than your own home.

I literally live in the countryside.

Where I live is literally rock bottom for walkability / transit / whatever.

I can still comment on other places. You don't need to literally live there to give your opinion on it.

I'm sure MCC has potential to be great in the future, with transit and narrowed streets. Better then a lot of places.

I'm not from London or New York either.
But you can compare and contrast diffrent cities.

 

[SashaLemon]

Please let me know where the positivity in this post is?

Guess you just glossed over allllllllll of this:

So like, yeah, Toronto is working on it. One little surface LRT and a BRT line going the other way is not going to cut it. There basically needs to be a radical shift in what you can build. I'm talking doing something at the provincial level like they did in California with SB9 and SB10. That would help ALL of us build the density (or at least start to, there are some other laws we need.) that actually supports great public transit. I would like to see in the future, for example, Line 5 to MCC, maybe even Line 2 to MCC, why not. Build new light metros through, at the same time as this increasing density.
In the whole GTA!
Instead of Manhattanization, lets strive for Londonization! Average density of 5,666/km2. (Old Toronto is 1.4x as dense, York is 1.09x as dense, East York is almost spot on, North York would only have to increase by 1.15x. Just to give you an idea of the density I am suggesting.) Now as we are increasing this density we build out modern rapid transit lines. Which should be automated light metros since we are building them in the modern age. If you look at London, they have tube stations and lines all across their vast "suburbs". Not to mention the overground, the new Elizabeth Line...
It's not like we are a tiny region, the GTA has 6,712,341 people, compared to London's 9,002,488. Lets put the density in, house more people, and build transit!!

Plus mixed use, plus proper cycling stuff (London gets that wrong also), plus have bigger density around GO Stations....

 

[sixrings]

I literally live in the countryside.

Where I live is literally rock bottom for walkability / transit / whatever.

I can still comment on other places. You don't need to literally live there to give your opinion on it.

I'm sure MCC has potential to be great in the future, with transit and narrowed streets. Better then a lot of places.

I'm not from London or New York either.
But you can compare and contrast diffrent cities.

You can comment on anything you want. I lived in Montreal for 6 years. Ottawa for a year. Calgary for three years. Toronto for 30 years and Mississauga for 3 years. Yes you can comment away. But I still don’t see the positivity that you spoke of in your posts.

I may be a bit defensive. But urbantoronto has a very downtown culture. Anything north of bloor is often looked down upon. Place like Yorkdale area are treated like they are in suburbia. Don’t even mention Scarborough on here. For some if you don’t live between Bathurst, bloor, the lake and the distillery you are in no man’s land. I can cope with that sort of elitist thinking in downtown specific threads. But when we are in a Mississauga thread you better believe I am going to not be very hospitable to such ideas.

 

[sixrings]

Guess you just glossed over allllllllll of this:

This was after you came out on the attack with the fake downtown and car is king comment.

Also no one is Londonizing because the market is set up that it isn’t cost efficient to build mid rises when the application process is just as tough as it is to build a sky scraper. So you can like that model but it’s never coming here. Even yorkville has become swallowed up by 50 floor buildings.

 

[SashaLemon]

Okay man. Don't listen to me.

I am literally advocating for London-style suburbs. No "downtown culture" or "elitist thinking". But whatever.

 

[Deadpool X]

I may be a bit defensive. But urbantoronto has a very downtown culture. Anything north of bloor is often looked down upon. Place like Yorkdale area are treated like they are in suburbia. Don’t even mention Scarborough on here. For some if you don’t live between Bathurst, bloor, the lake and the distillery you are in no man’s land. I can cope with that sort of elitist thinking in downtown specific threads. But when we are in a Mississauga thread you better believe I am going to not be very hospitable to such ideas.

I have seen this happen quite a few times as well. People in suburbs driving a car are considered lesser mortals and enemies of the environment because they don't use GO which has 30 min frequency for good part of the day even on its busiest lines*, charges astronomical fares, and is still slower than driving for most of the trips besides downtown. On top of that, people criticize huge parking garages on GO stations without realizing that majority of the people would need to use 2 buses to reach the stations and in most of the suburbs, 20 min frequency is considered good. Waiting 20 min twice for a trip to GO station might be more than your total driving time to your final destination. Somehow people living in downtown live in an alternate reality where they imagine buses every 5 minutes leading directly to GO stations.

*Don't even talk about many GO lines not having weekend and counter peak services AT ALL.

 

[Tim MacDonald]

Half hourly GO service on the LSW last weekend just wasn't cutting it. I took my wife and little one to the CNE around 11 and the train was standing room only even when we boarded at Clarkson. Fan Expo, a Jays game and the CNE created quite the cluster. If GO doesn't go back to the 15 minute service and very soon a lot of people won't bother with it. I know I won't be doing that again.

 

[Deadpool X]

Half hourly GO service on the LSW last weekend just wasn't cutting it. I took my wife and little one to the CNE around 11 and the train was standing room only even when we boarded at Clarkson. Fan Expo, a Jays game and the CNE created quite the cluster. If GO doesn't go back to the 15 minute service and very soon a lot of people won't bother with it. I know I won't be doing that again.

I used GO as well from Clarkson to Exhibition. The closest line from my place is Milton line which doesn't run on weekends or counter peak or pretty much any part of the week. I had to drive to Clarkson GO which is a 25 min drive and by transit could have been an hour from my home. Most surprising part is that GO takes 28 minutes to cover approx 24 km distance between Clarkson and Exhibition. That's an average speed of 51 km/hr on tracks that are mostly straight and owned by Metrolinx! This is supposed to be the fastest line on GO!

If you are going from Clarkson to Union (which is the final destination for most of the passengers), it takes 37 minutes to cover a distance of 27 km. That's an average speed of 44 km/hr. That's the average speed you get on one of the worst days during the busiest hour on the busiest portion of 401 (that is, Toronto portion). If you don't believe me, just see the first screenshot and check the time it takes at 8:00 am to traverse 401 from one end of City of Toronto to its other end. At its worse, it takes 1 hour during peak time which gives an average speed of 42 km/hr. On a good day, in rush hour, you would get an average speed of 72 km/hr.

The best part is that outside of rush hour (second screenshot), you get an average speed of over 100 km/hr while GO trains continue to crawl.

The point is that if you want transit to be more successful, it has to be:
1. Much faster than road trips because road trips are door to door while rail transit usually involves a car/bus rides at both ends.
2. Much more frequent so that you don't have to arrive 15 minutes before your train time and risk missing your train and waiting 30 more minutes. If you are driving, you just jump in your car right away, you don't need to leave that margin.
3. Much more affordable than driving. Marginal cost of driving is much lower than GO fares. If you are two, then driving can be cheaper even after paying for parking in downtown.

Somehow these facts get glossed over by people living in the city centres and I hope they can see the real issues with transit beyond their fairy tale urban bubble.

PS - I am an urban transit enthusiast (that's why I am on this forum) and I prefer using transit if it's not way worse than driving and it genuinely irks me how bad the transit is and how it gets ignored by people who suggest we should build a transit line from Milton to Vaughan instead of Highway 413.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Rails are ready to be installed in the Britannia-Matheson section.

View attachment 425070
View attachment 425072
View attachment 425071

Pinch me, I’m dreaming. Can’t believe that rails will imminently be laid on Hurontario!