TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Here's a time lapse of Seattle light rail. It's a fantastic system, and somewhat similar to the ECLRT
[video]https://youtu.be/sT9GJXv7NaA?t=2m20s[/video]
[video]https://youtu.be/sT9GJXv7NaA?t=2m20s[/video]
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Dan416
Senior Member
In what alternate reality is being pro-subway the same thing as being anti-transit? That's Republicanesque logic.
nfitz
Superstar
Though very lightly used. I counted 4 passengers boarding at 5 stations. Even in rush hour, it only runs once every 7.5 minutes, and drops to once every 15 minutes off-peak. The route is over 22 km and has ridership on par with the 7 km long St. Clair streetcar. Compare to the 19 km Eglinton line is forecast to have 5 times the ridership.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
The stations seem to be further apart than what the ECLRT surface stations would be like.
nfitz
Superstar
Yes, the average spacing of the 13 stations is over 2.1 km. Given it's only 2.5 km from the first station at Westlake (downtown) to the 5th station (Stadium - an average spacing of about 650 metres), then the remaining 8 stations have an average spacing of about 2.8 km.
Given the forecast ridership of the shorter Eglinton line is about 5 times higher, perhaps the lesson here is that spacing should be closer!
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
And before people say the stop spacing needs to be wider:
According to the EA, increasing spacing only marginally improve travel times. This is because dwell time increases at the remaining stations when spacing is widened. Furthermore wider stop spacing reduces the number of people served.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
That is why reducing stop spacing on Eglinton would be a poor decision.
But the stop spacing on Sheppard East is almost St. Clair like at points, which is where I think most of the sentiment for widening stop spacing comes from.
But the stop spacing on Sheppard East is almost St. Clair like at points, which is where I think most of the sentiment for widening stop spacing comes from.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Line 1 has wide spacing north of Eglinton, requiring buses to provide local service. However, and this is a BIG however, the buses do not have the same headway service like the rapid transit service underneath it. At 15 minutes (even during the rush hours), it can be upsetting to miss a bus and then having to decide to walk to the nearest station or not. See link. Except when the subway is down for the morning, when the 320 Yonge Blue night runs.
Yet having the Line 2 extended further into Scarborough as a heavy rail subway would also mean wide spacing of stations. Another problem to come.
Wider spacing on the ECLRT may be a nice to have, until one considers that a local bus line might be required to fill in the gaps. But only if the headway matches the rapid transit line.
ehlow
Senior Member
Sheppard spacing is much wider than St Clair. It's mostly 400m, with some 800m. You could argue that it should always be 800m (major roads only), but it's still basically at least double the 200m St Clair spacings.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
That is true.
The best comparison for Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard LRTs actually exists right here in Toronto. It's the Queensway LRT. The three LRTs should be very similar to Queensway.
- They all run on private ROWs
- They all have signal priority. Through Queensway's priority is apparently somewhat troublesome. I'd expect it signal priority to perform better on our modern LRT lines
- The LRT lines will have higher usage than Queensway. This will have a negative impact on dwell times (when compared to Queensway), though all door boarding will likely negate this
- Stop spacing on the Queensway is significantly tighter than on the new LRT lines. About 380 meters vs. 400 to 600 meters.
- The average speed of Queensway and the expected speeds of the LRT lines are about the same.
If you've ridden on Queensway, you know how fast it speed down the ROW. It feels like you're on a rocket. I love it
Start about 1:00 in.
[video=youtube;6wELmKuaBjo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wELmKuaBjo[/video]
More:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xc52vHLtWk
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ehlow
Senior Member
There are plenty of examples around the world of various types of LRT, some are fully grade separated (like Scarborough LRT would have been), most are in their own lane but go through traffic lights at some point. Sometimes they go through stop signs instead of traffic signals (N Judah in SF). Often it's a mix of various environments.
You just choose the appropriate thing for what kind of service you want to provide and the existing context.
You just choose the appropriate thing for what kind of service you want to provide and the existing context.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
nfitz
Superstar
The 7 km St. Clair line has 27 stops, an average spacing of about 270 metres (with some stops even closer together). The 13 km Sheppard East line has only 26 stops (an average spacing of over 500 metres).
Which part of Sheppard East is the average stop distance coming anywhere close to St. Clair?
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I guess it just looks that way on the map. Hard to wrap your head around how large Scarborough really is at times.
I hope the people who did the EA knew how to best implement stop spacing to balance speed and maximization of ridership.
I hope the people who did the EA knew how to best implement stop spacing to balance speed and maximization of ridership.
nfitz
Superstar
Indeed it is. If you go down Lawrence from Victoria Park, it's over 16 km to get to the other end of Scarborough. If you go down Bloor/Dundas from the eastern edge of Etobicoke, you enter Mississauga in only 7 km, and 16 km puts you past Mavis!
With the proposed Danforth subway extension to McCowan, the subway will reach about 22 km past University Avenue. If you went west from there 22 km, you get to Square One. If you went west 30 km from Oakville, you'd get to Oakville. If go east 30 km then you get to the about the eastern border of Scarborough.
I think we often forget how big Scarborough is!