[Steve X]

Ding ding ding.

No transit system is perfect.

I hear pll in singapore, the netherlands, paris, Tokyo etc. Complain all the damn time. So yea if you're interested in hiring expertise from only perfect systems in this world you'll be looking for a ling time.

Ontarios problem atm isn’t creating perfection, its creating a good system..

db is perfectly suitable for that, if given the right tools and time. Anyway. There's no point in rehashing this subject. Metrolinx is moving on and nothing we say or do is going to turn back the clocks on that decision.

The problem with ML isn't because they have problems but they are not willing to overhaul the working cultural within the system. DB wanted to convert GO into a subway like system with frequent service probably on EMUs instead of the current locomotive trailer system. ML seems to want to keep the current equipment in place with new electric or hydrogen locomotives and continue the current "commuter" style scheduling on a maximum best frequency of 15 min.

Personally I think there is so much the current setup can handle. You can't improve ridership if you constantly prefer to have hundreds of riders flood out a station all queued up every 15 min. The current coaches are nice and comfy but they really restrict customer flow. The lack of doors and standing space makes them not suitable for a metro-like system. Finally if they continue with the current commuter parking lot and making terrible long walks in non-weather protected environments, it will never integrate into the local network. Nothing is pointing to them willing to make these changes.

Let's take Weston GO. If they want to integrate this station and make it easy to commute from Etobicoke to downtown, they would need to run much more frequent (shorter) trains every 5-10 min for most of the day in both directions, not 15-30min. They should convert parts of the parking lot to bus loop allowing the 52, 89 and new routes connecting GO station walkway. Riders could walk from TTC bus stops to the GO platform within less than a minute. With frequent trains, they could connect to Line 5 within 10-15 min of getting off the bus.

We can only hope ML wakes up.

 

[ownthesky]

The problem with ML isn't because they have problems but they are not willing to overhaul the working cultural within the system. DB wanted to convert GO into a subway like system with frequent service probably on EMUs instead of the current locomotive trailer system. ML seems to want to keep the current equipment in place with new electric or hydrogen locomotives and continue the current "commuter" style scheduling on a maximum best frequency of 15 min.

Personally I think there is so much the current setup can handle. You can't improve ridership if you constantly prefer to have hundreds of riders flood out a station all queued up every 15 min. The current coaches are nice and comfy but they really restrict customer flow. The lack of doors and standing space makes them not suitable for a metro-like system. Finally if they continue with the current commuter parking lot and making terrible long walks in non-weather protected environments, it will never integrate into the local network. Nothing is pointing to them willing to make these changes.

Let's take Weston GO. If they want to integrate this station and make it easy to commute from Etobicoke to downtown, they would need to run much more frequent (shorter) trains every 5-10 min for most of the day in both directions, not 15-30min. They should convert parts of the parking lot to bus loop allowing the 52, 89 and new routes connecting GO station walkway. Riders could walk from TTC bus stops to the GO platform within less than a minute. With frequent trains, they could connect to Line 5 within 10-15 min of getting off the bus.

We can only hope ML wakes up.

Not to further derail the thread, but I've been wondering lately if the oldies at ML were balking at the massive labour and station overhauls that would need to happen over a short time period. The only way to affordably get to the level of service DB wanted is to have less staff on the trains, the only way to get less staff on the trains is to commit to a level boarding strategy, and the only way to commit to a level boarding strategy is to overhaul every station to bring everything level to the accessibility platform. It's a tough pill to swallow for an organization that is very conservative in its strategy. Refurbishing stations already takes years, I can only imagine the contractor drama it would take to get every station on say Lakeshore East/West to that level and the labour conundrum of transitioning many customer service ambassadors into conductors/engineers.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Not to further derail the thread, but I've been wondering lately if the oldies at ML were balking at the massive labour and station overhauls that would need to happen over a short time period. The only way to affordably get to the level of service DB wanted is to have less staff on the trains, the only way to get less staff on the trains is to commit to a level boarding strategy, and the only way to commit to a level boarding strategy is to overhaul every station to bring everything level to the accessibility platform. It's a tough pill to swallow for an organization that is very conservative in its strategy. Refurbishing stations already takes years, I can only imagine the contractor drama it would take to get every station on say Lakeshore East/West to that level and the labour conundrum of transitioning many customer service ambassadors into conductors/engineers.

Level boarding is already in GO Transit's long-term plan. Much of the station refurbishment projects they have been doing the past 10 years has been integrating the ability to raise the platforms in the future. DB and Alstom already had a plan on how they were going to handle the labour shake-up since there was already going to be a need for a training program with the new bi-mode and electric locomotives they were going to be getting with the expansion program. The construction and infrastructure partners were already planning all the work they were going to do to get the system to where it would need to be for the plan. My best guess was that someone high up in the PC Government was unwilling to shell out the money that would be needed to move forward with the expansion plans at the pace the ONExpress partnership proposed to move at and so they ordered that plan scrapped in favour of a slower pace of expansion that would cost less in the short term (but ultimately more in the long term). IMO it was a short-sighted decision as everyone knows that GO needs to expand rapidly to help alleviate the congestion problems plaguing the GTHA. Ultimately, this is yet another example of why politicians need to get out of the way of transit planning and growth management because they make short-sighted decisions like this. Especially considering if it was about the cost of the plan, they could have asked the Feds to kick in some cash to alleviate the budget pressures as the federal Libs have been more than willing to support large projects of this scale.

 

[Thaboss]

My best guess was that someone high up in the PC Government was unwilling to shell out the money that would be needed to move forward with the expansion plans at the pace the ONExpress partnership proposed to move at and so they ordered that plan scrapped in favour of a slower pace of expansion that would cost less in the short term

This has been my suspicion for a couple of reasons.

1. Anyone who has worked in government or with an agency knows that major decisions are ultimately sanctioned or directed by the government of the day. While ideas can come from bottom up, decsions flow from the top down. Publicly executives often take the blame for negative outcomes, even when the final decision was beyond their perview.
2. For such a massive decision, the Ford government has not addressed the change at all, acting as though everything is business as usual. Ford is many things, but silent when it comes to large transit projects he is not. He’s been more than willing to push a narrative in the past (see his “impromptu” comments on Line 5 that had zero chance of being accurate or his announcements about various train stations that won't exist for several years). Yet here with what was the agencies biggest and possibly transformative project in Metrolinx’s portfolio, he has been noticeably silent… hmmm.
3. The leaks describing Metrolinx’s conflict with DB are, I’m sure, real. But I find it hard to believe metrolinx would ever have the authority to cancel such a massive contract, volunteerly descope the project, and keep the public from truly understanding the new plans, to such a massive financial and politically sensitive decision without at least seeking permission, input, or guidance from the minister.

IMO, it would be like ALTO unilaterally deciding to remove sncf from the highspeed project, 4 years into the project, because they dont like their management etc., replace them with a new project lead, descope the project, and all this without really telling the public about the massive changes and to do so without the ministers sign off. A bunch of heads would roll...

 

[smallspy]

IMO, it would be like ALTO unilaterally deciding to remove sncf from the highspeed project, 4 years into the project, because they dont like their management etc., replace them with a new project lead, descope the project, and all this without really telling the public about the massive changes and to do so without the ministers sign off. A bunch of heads would roll...

No, the parallel would be if SNCF started to suggest and plan for things that were anywhere from against the regulations to downright dangerous. That's why ONxpress was booted from the operations side of the contract.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

It was pretty obvious when Ford advanced his four signature subway projects and then cut various revenue streams (while sending tax rebate cheques) that something had to give in the province’s cash flows. There have been similar quiet cuts in other areas eg health care, so transit is only one aspect of this. There is little or no transparency, but Ford’s poll ratings are high. Go figure.

- Paul

 

[hw621]

"help"
View attachment 677375

Unfortunately, some (if not all) Chinese workers who help build the current Chinese HSR and subway lines are still living under similar conditions...

 

[mathbath]

Level boarding is already in GO Transit's long-term plan. Much of the station refurbishment projects they have been doing the past 10 years has been integrating the ability to raise the platforms in the future. DB and Alstom already had a plan on how they were going to handle the labour shake-up since there was already going to be a need for a training program with the new bi-mode and electric locomotives they were going to be getting with the expansion program. The construction and infrastructure partners were already planning all the work they were going to do to get the system to where it would need to be for the plan. My best guess was that someone high up in the PC Government was unwilling to shell out the money that would be needed to move forward with the expansion plans at the pace the ONExpress partnership proposed to move at and so they ordered that plan scrapped in favour of a slower pace of expansion that would cost less in the short term (but ultimately more in the long term). IMO it was a short-sighted decision as everyone knows that GO needs to expand rapidly to help alleviate the congestion problems plaguing the GTHA. Ultimately, this is yet another example of why politicians need to get out of the way of transit planning and growth management because they make short-sighted decisions like this. Especially considering if it was about the cost of the plan, they could have asked the Feds to kick in some cash to alleviate the budget pressures as the federal Libs have been more than willing to support large projects of this scale.

i am a real life example of this. because of the fact that go trains didn’t end up getting boosted frequency this year, and express trains still haven’t returned to LE line, i had to lease a car to get to work in an acceptable amount of time. i am adding to traffic congestion by doing so, along with likely thousands of other people. its dysfunctional and expensive as heck.

 

[Steve X]

i am a real life example of this. because of the fact that go trains didn’t end up getting boosted frequency this year, and express trains still haven’t returned to LE line, i had to lease a car to get to work in an acceptable amount of time. i am adding to traffic congestion by doing so, along with likely thousands of other people. its dysfunctional and expensive as heck.

It's going to take a lot for them to accept the conversion to a Berlin S-Bahn like metro system which DB operates. They really need to get away from slow accelerating locomotive and move to EMU trains where they have motors on every car or every other car like the TTC subway cars. GO trains are so damn slow, they are only suitable for commuter railways like Union to Kitchener while Union to Mount Pleasant (in Brampton) should operate with EMUs. By operating EMUs on the Lakeshore line with increased frequency, it would make up for the lost of express trains even if it stops at every station.

 

[toraerach]

It's going to take a lot for them to accept the conversion to a Berlin S-Bahn like metro system which DB operates. They really need to get away from slow accelerating locomotive and move to EMU trains where they have motors on every car or every other car like the TTC subway cars. GO trains are so damn slow, they are only suitable for commuter railways like Union to Kitchener while Union to Mount Pleasant (in Brampton) should operate with EMUs. By operating EMUs on the Lakeshore line with increased frequency, it would make up for the lost of express trains even if it stops at every station.

Deutsche Bahn ist not the operator of the Berlin S-Bahn or any other S-Bahn service in Germany (IIRC).

 

[JSF-1]

Deutsche Bahn ist not the operator of the Berlin S-Bahn or any other S-Bahn service in Germany (IIRC).

The Berlin S-Bahn is owned and operated by S-Bahn Berlin GmbH which is a subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn. It's why you see the DB logo on S-Bahn trains. It used to be owned by BVG (the ones who operate Berlins transit) but it was handed over to DB in 1994. DB also has other S-Bahn subsidiary's under the "DB Regio" banner that operates S-Bahns in Breisgau (only the electric lines), Dresden, Hamburg, Hanover, Leipzig, Magdeburg, Munich, Nuremberg, Frankfurt, Mannheim, Rhurgebiet (along with 2 other operators), Rostock, and Stuttgart. In fact of Germany's 16 S-Bahn's DB owns and operates 14 of them in some capacity. The only S-Bahns DB has absolutly no involvment in are the Brehmen S-Bahn (operated by NordWestBahn), and the Offenburg S-Bahn (operated by SWEG).

 

[hawc]

I'm in Edmonton and they already have our Eglinton Crosstown open!

(Pretty sure it's the same cars?)

 

[nfitz]

I'm in Edmonton and they already have our Eglinton Crosstown open!

(Pretty sure it's the same cars?)

It's pretty much the same car. Flexity Freedoms. But these are double-ended (like Waterloo), and are a 7-module over 40-metre car, compared to the 5-module 30-metre cars on Line 5 and in Waterloo.

 

[Cobra]

I'm in Edmonton and they already have our Eglinton Crosstown open!

(Pretty sure it's the same cars?)

How slow is it?

 

[hawc]

How slow is it?

About as fast as the train that used to run through Centerville on Toronto Island.