News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 10K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 42K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 6K     0 

Edit: some benefit can still be found in having LRT on Eglinton, namely the ease of connecting to the north-south LRT lines if the city is interested in those. For example: Jane, Victoria Park, maybe even Leslie if the city wants to increase the density along that corridor. Remains to be seen how much of that comes to live.
Unfortunately some of these corridors have very similar problems, especially if we look at Jane. The Jane LRT was actually at risk of being cancelled even due to most of the street being so narrow that most of the route would have to be tunneled, and doing so was considered way too costly given the ridership that the corridor would have. As for Victoria Park, I honestly think that an LRT there has a higher chance of using Toronto Streetcar standards in order to make use of the Bingham Loop, so TTC Gauge and what not - which would make it incompatible with Eglinton.
 
The Bloor-Danforth Line should not be used as an example of good subway stop spacing, it's way too short. You want a good example of stop spacing done right? Look at Viva Blue in York Region, 1km stop spacing.
And why, exactly, is 1 km the gold standard? As I have mentioned on several occasions, having stops too far apart makes them inaccessible to those with mobility challenges. Hell, look at Sheppard East right now, they have to run a parallel branch of the 85 bus above the subway because the stops are so far apart!

Sounds to me like the BD line got it exactly right, hence it doesn't need a parallel bus line overhead eating up resources and taking away buses and drivers that could be used more constructively elsewhere.

The assertion here is that you're starting at Kennedy and Eglinton, when in practice not many people will be starting there. You have to first get to Kennedy and Eglinton, and then take transit to where you need to go. Then after you reach Kipling, you're going to have to make a last mile connection there.
You're not contradicting my point here. You're just reiterating how transit - any transit - may not be as useful on long cross town trips in suburbia.

Completely untrue, especially in the context of Peel, Durham, and York. GO is an extremely radial service, perfect for if you're going to downtown Toronto, but not everyone wants to go to Downtown Toronto. Say you're going to Midtown Toronto and you live in Vaughan. A completely expected trip could be to take the Barrie Line down to Caledonia, then transfer to Line 5 and head east. If you live in Mississauga and you want to head to Midtown or North York, we have MiTransitway -> Line 5 -> Line 1. This is the value of a crosstown route, there are actually many trips and journeys across the region that can be opened up, especially a corridor like Eglinton that connects so many different destinations and interchanges with so many other lines, and we blew it on an extremely fancy streetcar.
I didn't say there were going to be NO people from the sticks using the service. I said there weren't going to be appreciable amounts, and I stand by that. The bulk of the Barrie line service runs during rush hours, and off-peak the trains run every hour. It will be the source of some ridership, just like some people from the suburbs of Prague come into the city. But the line is not built for the suburban commuter.

Moreover, on what basis did we blow the money on an extremely fancy streetcar? Besides the lack of transit priority, what exactly is the problem? Is the line a failure because we haven't induced enough demand to carry 100,000+ people a day? I don't see this as a problem. A rapid transit line doesn't have to carry the ridership of the 1 or 2 to be a success. At least it will be easier to breathe while using the service.

First is land use, Toronto is far more sprawly and filled with car oriented suburbs.
This is not an argument in favour of the subway. Subways need heavily dense areas to be successful, otherwise you're just wasting insane amounts of money when cheaper transit would do the job just fine and then some (see also: the Scarborough Subway Extension).

The best use cases for on street trams are generally for A) As a feeder route to a larger rapid transit service, or B) As a local route in a downtown core.
Why must it be this way? Why can't we accept that sometimes, the ridership in a given corridor is simply not enough to sustain a subway, and build trams instead?

And Moscow is like the capital of building subways outside of China. In fact, Moscow is like a perfect case study for how to choose whether something should be a streetcar or a subway.
Except that I brought it up as an example of how measuring the distance across the city doesn't tell the complete story (or indeed any story at all), not about what transit choices they did or didn't make.

Because it doesn't really matter. We are already spending so much money on the tunneled section, the amount of money you'd spend on an elevated guideway in the middle of a stroad will be peanuts.
Will it? Is 5 km of elevated guideway peanuts?

If you fully automate a line, you can run at significantly higher frequencies
Is that a necessity at this point in time? This isn't the Yonge line here, the Crosstown is not expected to reach capacity any time soon and this feels like a benefit that it wouldn't be able to make use of for decades to come.

If we have a fully grade separated LRT, there are quite literally no benefits to using LRT technology,
The benefits become somewhat dubious if the bulk of the line is tunneled, sure, but as a rule of thumb this is not true. If you have an LRT running on the surface, it means that you have a corridor that is future proofed against future ridership requirements, and you are able to run smaller and cheaper vehicles while the ridership justifies such vehicles, and then you are able to upgrade the service at a cheaper cost to subway standards IF the ridership reaches the need for a subway one day. It's like choosing to run a 40 foot bus vs. a 60 foot bus, but on a larger scale.
I avoid making plans along St Clair for precisely this reason. Too many stops. Come on now.
Well, I personally think the idea of avoiding a corridor because stops are too frequent is absolutely ludicrous, but you do you.
 
Last edited:
And why, exactly, is 1 km the gold standard? As I have mentioned on several occasions, having stops too far apart makes them inaccessible to those with mobility challenges. Hell, look at Sheppard East right now, they have to run a parallel branch of the 85 bus above the subway because the stops are so far apart!
500 meters walk maximum to a station. We need to properly maintain sidewalks and pedestrian accesses. Beyond that, if you can't walk 500 meters, maybe you should be using Wheel-Trans.
Sounds to me like the BD line got it exactly right, hence it doesn't need a parallel bus line overhead eating up resources and taking away buses and drivers that could be used more constructively elsewhere.
A grade separated line could be automated. Which saves money towards that bus service that can be a truly local service, rather than a crosstown-local service. The possibility for higher frequency means that we can shorten the platforms, which saves money (especially in the underground portion). I don't think an automated line at similar capacities would have costed more in construction costs, and it would have costed less in operation.
You're not contradicting my point here. You're just reiterating how transit - any transit - may not be as useful on long cross town trips in suburbia.
Which is why we need some faster modes for lines that actually go crosstown. Ultimately, we paid $5.5 billion dollars for this line, so it should deliver a service that is better than its predecessor.
I didn't say there were going to be NO people from the sticks using the service. I said there weren't going to be appreciable amounts, and I stand by that. The bulk of the Barrie line service runs during rush hours, and off-peak the trains run every hour. It will be the source of some ridership, just like some people from the suburbs of Prague come into the city. But the line is not built for the suburban commuter.
GO RER will change that. Also, serving more trips (a 1 km stop spacing can't, and shouldn't, be a detriment to ridership - especially if it's got good bus connections) should be the priority.
Moreover, on what basis did we blow the money on an extremely fancy streetcar? Besides the lack of transit priority, what exactly is the problem? Is the line a failure because we haven't induced enough demand to carry 100,000+ people a day? I don't see this as a problem. A rapid transit line doesn't have to carry the ridership of the 1 or 2 to be a success. At least it will be easier to breathe while using the service.
It's not only the ridership, but also the quality of the service for that ridership. Besides, a higher capacity means that you will be able to breathe.
This is not an argument in favour of the subway. Subways need heavily dense areas to be successful, otherwise you're just wasting insane amounts of money when cheaper transit would do the job just fine and then some (see also: the Scarborough Subway Extension).
Sure. But we've spent $5 billion on this line, and we will spend another frivolous $5 billion on EWLRT, so we should be getting fast and reliable service for that.
Why must it be this way? Why can't we accept that sometimes, the ridership in a given corridor is simply not enough to sustain a subway, and build trams instead?
Paraphrase: "why don't we act Toronto and be short-sighted and not leave capacity for future trips?"
Will it? Is 5 km of elevated guideway peanuts?
Yes, compared to what we're spending. Context matters.
Is that a necessity at this point in time? This isn't the Yonge line here, the Crosstown is not expected to reach capacity any time soon and this feels like a benefit that it wouldn't be able to make use of for decades to come.
That's the point. Our transit history is littered with no-foresight decisions. The Crosstown may not reach capacity in 10, or 20, or 30 years, but I plan to live longer than that (guess my age!). I don't want to see overcrowded Crosstown trains in my lifetime.
The benefits become somewhat dubious if the bulk of the line is tunneled, sure, but as a rule of thumb this is not true. If you have an LRT running on the surface, it means that you have a corridor that is future proofed against future ridership requirements, and you are able to run smaller and cheaper vehicles while the ridership justifies such vehicles, and then you are able to upgrade the service at a cheaper cost to subway standards IF the ridership reaches the need for a subway one day. It's like choosing to run a 40 foot bus vs. a 60 foot bus, but on a larger scale.
How is this a "rule of thumb"? The bulk of this line (roughly 60%) *is* tunneled, and a grade separated crosstown route would be actually future proofed, because you can increase train lengths on an automated system too (especially with PSDs).
Well, I personally think the idea of avoiding a corridor because stops are too frequent is absolutely ludicrous, but you do you.
"You should take slow transit because that's my opinion on how transit should be built."

Nobody ever thought that the 510 and 512 stop spacings were too close, or that this made the line worse, or took a different line because of that. Oh wait ...
 
Beyond that, if you can't walk 500 meters, maybe you should be using Wheel-Trans.
Wheel-Trans requires you book your trip a minimum of 4 hours in advance. This might work if you know you're going to need to be somewhere at a certain time, but completely eliminates the possibility of any spontaneous trips. And anyway, if Wheel-Trans were our go to solution for everything, then why are we bothering with low floor vehicles? They have less capacity than high floors and offer an inferior ride quality. If we thought Wheel-Trans to be a sufficient replacement, then we could be riding around in next gen CLRVs instead of being thrown around every time a Flexity rounds a curve, but that's not the direction we have chosen to go in.

Which is why we need some faster modes for lines that actually go crosstown. Ultimately, we paid $5.5 billion dollars for this line, so it should deliver a service that is better than its predecessor.
Do you have any actual statistics to suggest that the Crosstown is going to be worse than its precedessor, a bus line with no bus only lanes? Provided some absurd SOP to slow the trains way down like on the TTC streetcar network isn't introduced, the fact of having its own lanes alone is going to make the trip faster than that of a bus, as evidenced all over Europe.

GO RER will change that. Also, serving more trips (a 1 km stop spacing can't, and shouldn't, be a detriment to ridership - especially if it's got good bus connections) should be the priority.
Will it? The planned GO expansion is going introduce a measly five stations within the city of Toronto. Despite our marketing of it as a "RER", it is really going to be in no way comparable to the Paris RER, or the Berlin S-Bahn, or JR commuter rail. With the amount of new stations introduced it's more like it's more like a semi-frequent regional train like the RB/RE lines in Germany.

It's not only the ridership, but also the quality of the service for that ridership. Besides, a higher capacity means that you will be able to breathe.
At last tally (2018, as per the CPTDB wiki), the Eglinton West bus currently has a similar ridership to the 510 Spadina line (38.5k), the Eglinton East bus a mere 23k. I don't see on what basis you say I will not be able to breathe on the Crosstown, especially if we don't expect ridership to double immediately.

Sure. But we've spent $5 billion on this line, and we will spend another frivolous $5 billion on EWLRT, so we should be getting fast and reliable service for that.
Again with the assertion that the service will not be fast and reliable. Have you ever actually ridden one of these Euro style tram lines without transit priority? I have, it's annoying to have to wait at traffic lights but it's not the end of the world and it's much faster than making the same trip by bus, especially during rush hour.

Paraphrase: "why don't we act Toronto and be short-sighted and not leave capacity for future trips?"
I think calling this kind of thing acting 'Toronto' is a misrepresentation. 20 years after its opening, the Sheppard line barely cracks 50k daily ridership and we're building a subway extension to replace line 3, which also has similar ridership to the 510 Spadina streetcar. "Acting Toronto" would be more like overbuilding our transit and not getting maximum value out of it for generations so that the population doesn't have to feel like second class citizens for riding a "fancy streetcar" instead of a subway.

And before you reply to this accusing me of a strawman, if you actually look at the discussions around the Scarborough subway, at comments made by both councillors and regular citizens, not wanting to feel like second class citizens while downtown gets their subways is exactly the reason we are building the SSE in the first place. LRT would've been more than adequate for the job.

How is this a "rule of thumb"? The bulk of this line (roughly 60%) *is* tunneled

The benefits become somewhat dubious if the bulk of the line is tunneled, sure, but as a rule of thumb this is not true.

"You should take slow transit because that's my opinion on how transit should be built."
Strawman. I never said anything about the 512 being a model for how transit should be built; I brought up the stop spacing on the BD line. Someone else brought up the 512. I quite agree that the 510 and 512 are maddening in how slow they are, but the lines exist, and avoiding them because they stop a bit more frequently than you or I would like is outlandish.

And, curiously, the BD line enjoys a daily ridership of almost 530,000. Maybe the station spacing isn't as big of a problem as I've been lead to believe.
 
Wheel-Trans requires you book your trip a minimum of 4 hours in advance. This might work if you know you're going to need to be somewhere at a certain time, but completely eliminates the possibility of any spontaneous trips. And anyway, if Wheel-Trans were our go to solution for everything, then why are we bothering with low floor vehicles? They have less capacity than high floors and offer an inferior ride quality. If we thought Wheel-Trans to be a sufficient replacement, then we could be riding around in next gen CLRVs instead of being thrown around every time a Flexity rounds a curve, but that's not the direction we have chosen to go in.
If you want a local service, that's what parallel bus services are for. There is absolutely nothing wrong with putting bus routes on top of subway routes. In fact in Seoul, they have full fledged BRTs running on top of subway lines.
Do you have any actual statistics to suggest that the Crosstown is going to be worse than its precedessor, a bus line with no bus only lanes? Provided some absurd SOP to slow the trains way down like on the TTC streetcar network isn't introduced, the fact of having its own lanes alone is going to make the trip faster than that of a bus, as evidenced all over Europe.
The Spadina Streetcar was worse than its predecessor, St. Clair today runs slower than when it was in Mixed traffic, and the Finch West LRT is barely going to be faster than the bus service outside of Rush Hours. Remember, LRTs aren't fast modes, all that separating them from traffic really does is allow them to avoid Rush Hour traffic, which while it's an important travel time, doesn't represent the only time people will travel.
Will it? The planned GO expansion is going introduce a measly five stations within the city of Toronto. Despite our marketing of it as a "RER", it is really going to be in no way comparable to the Paris RER, or the Berlin S-Bahn, or JR commuter rail. With the amount of new stations introduced it's more like it's more like a semi-frequent regional train like the RB/RE lines in Germany.
Then you have no idea what's going on. GO Expansion isn't just 5 new stations, it's the electrification and service expansion of 5 GO lines. Recently Metrolinx has announced (clearly due to a push from DB) that all lines will operate ON AVERAGE every 5 MINUTES during rush hours, with it likely decreasing to every 7.5 minutes off peak. This is a far cry from what you said which is "The bulk of the Barrie line service runs during rush hours, and off-peak the trains run every hour."
At last tally (2018, as per the CPTDB wiki), the Eglinton West bus currently has a similar ridership to the 510 Spadina line (38.5k), the Eglinton East bus a mere 23k. I don't see on what basis you say I will not be able to breathe on the Crosstown, especially if we don't expect ridership to double immediately.
And we in Toronto, as well as Canada broadly routinely underestimate how much ridership new infrastructure gives us. It's basically like clockwerk, we introduce a new service, and all of a sudden we can't handle the service levels.
Again with the assertion that the service will not be fast and reliable. Have you ever actually ridden one of these Euro style tram lines without transit priority? I have, it's annoying to have to wait at traffic lights but it's not the end of the world and it's much faster than making the same trip by bus, especially during rush hour.
Or for an extra 0.5 to 1B, we could've fully grade separated the line and built a metro with more capacity, and without risk of being tboned by some crazy driver.
I think calling this kind of thing acting 'Toronto' is a misrepresentation. 20 years after its opening, the Sheppard line barely cracks 50k daily ridership and we're building a subway extension to replace line 3, which also has similar ridership to the 510 Spadina streetcar. "Acting Toronto" would be more like overbuilding our transit and not getting maximum value out of it for generations so that the population doesn't have to feel like second class citizens for riding a "fancy streetcar" instead of a subway.
Ye of course, because the Sheppard Subway is a tiny stub that doesn't go anywhere. You have to put every single line into context. When you consider how tiny the Sheppard Subway is, it's actually amazing it gets the ridership that it does. It has more riders per km than most lines in say Washington DC.
And before you reply to this accusing me of a strawman, if you actually look at the discussions around the Scarborough subway, at comments made by both councillors and regular citizens, not wanting to feel like second class citizens while downtown gets their subways is exactly the reason we are building the SSE in the first place. LRT would've been more than adequate for the job.
We can agree that the SSE overbuilt, but for various reasons the Scarborough LRT is frankly even more ridiculous. What should've been done is Eglinton gets built as a Canada Line style Light Metro, and the SRT is replaced by regular Metro rolling stock and acts as an extension of the Eglinton Line. That would've been great.
And, curiously, the BD line enjoys a daily ridership of almost 530,000. Maybe the station spacing isn't as big of a problem as I've been lead to believe.
Who exactly was claiming that BD was somehow a failure? I was calling it unfortunate that it had such tight stop spacing and that it should be larger, that's not the same thing as saying that the short stop spacing is a massive failure that dooms the usability of the line?

This is what you're fundamentally misunderstanding. NOBODY is claiming that Line 5 will be a "failure", a billion dollar boondoggle that nobody will use. What we are saying is that a lot of design decisions are mind numbingly idiotic for no good reason. In fact, you have yet to prove your point, why is it a good thing that Eglinton is an LRT? What are the benefits of the mode? It only saves a small amount of money in exchange for worse vehicles that aren't suitable for the usage of a subway, that are more expensive to maintain, that decrease the reliability of the entire line due to being in direct contact with pedestrians and motor vehicles.

P.S, I'll add on to this:
Is that a necessity at this point in time? This isn't the Yonge line here, the Crosstown is not expected to reach capacity any time soon and this feels like a benefit that it wouldn't be able to make use of for decades to come.
Automation and higher frequencies does 2 things, 1 it means that you don't need a driver or employee present on board. This massively reduced how much money you're spending operating the trains. 2, this allows us to run smaller trains. A 150m train running every 3 minutes, has the same capacity as a 75m train running every 90s. If we look at Eglinton for instance, if built that as a metro, instead of building the full 90m long platforms, you could've built it with 50-60m long platforms, which would significantly saved on the construction costs. As you might well know, by far the most expensive part of any subway is the stations, having more stations absolutely baloons the cost of the subway project, and being able to halve or at the very least significantly cut how much station you need to build goes a long way in reducing the overall cost of the project, cost that can go to something else such as, elevating the eastern portion. Now I'm not going to have an argument on whether or not additional funds would be needed to do it this way, but I will argue that a 60m Eglinton Line Metro would not cost more than .5 to 1B dollar extra, which is only a 10-20% increase over the base price. This is why I said that "5km of elevation won't add much to the cost" and frankly it would very likely be worth it considering the far more pleasant trains and all the saving in operations that we would see.
 
Last edited:
In fact, you have yet to prove your point, why is it a good thing that Eglinton is an LRT?
I have already argued that I don't personally care whether Eglinton is LRT, horse drawn carriage, or magnetically suspended monorails from Mars. What I have been railing against is the arguments that the lack of transit priority, while undoubtedly a uniquely Torontonian embarrassment, is sufficient cause to waste more money on grade separation, that you don't need subways everywhere to have a transit system worth anything, and that half a kilometre between stops is entirely reasonable and we should not seek to make our transit faster by screwing over those with mobility challenges.
 
I have already argued that I don't personally care whether Eglinton is LRT, horse drawn carriage, or magnetically suspended monorails from Mars. What I have been railing against is the arguments that the lack of transit priority, while undoubtedly a uniquely Torontonian embarrassment, is sufficient cause to waste more money on grade separation, that you don't need subways everywhere to have a transit system worth anything, and that half a kilometre between stops is entirely reasonable and we should not seek to make our transit faster by screwing over those with mobility challenges.
Stop spacing every half a km for a major rapid transit lines is going overboard (imo). If Eglinton was being built to serve mostly local trips, like the Finch West LRT, than a stop every 500m is totally reasonable. However, the Crosstown would be acting as a major arterial transit corridor (like the YUS line and BD line), so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to handicap the line for local trips. We shouldn't apply one mode of transport for every single corridor since each one has a different context.
 
Wheel-Trans requires you book your trip a minimum of 4 hours in advance. This might work if you know you're going to need to be somewhere at a certain time, but completely eliminates the possibility of any spontaneous trips. And anyway, if Wheel-Trans were our go to solution for everything, then why are we bothering with low floor vehicles? They have less capacity than high floors and offer an inferior ride quality. If we thought Wheel-Trans to be a sufficient replacement, then we could be riding around in next gen CLRVs instead of being thrown around every time a Flexity rounds a curve, but that's not the direction we have chosen to go in.
The point being that you can't make every accommodation for people with mobility issues. Ultimately, a parallel local service is not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, since there will be such service west of Science Centre anyways.
Do you have any actual statistics to suggest that the Crosstown is going to be worse than its precedessor, a bus line with no bus only lanes? Provided some absurd SOP to slow the trains way down like on the TTC streetcar network isn't introduced, the fact of having its own lanes alone is going to make the trip faster than that of a bus, as evidenced all over Europe.
You're literally arguing that a $5.5 billion (without operations cost, which raises that to $13 billion) crosstown line will be faster than a no-priority bus. Which is going to happen, but that's an unambitious target for all that money.
Will it? The planned GO expansion is going introduce a measly five stations within the city of Toronto. Despite our marketing of it as a "RER", it is really going to be in no way comparable to the Paris RER, or the Berlin S-Bahn, or JR commuter rail. With the amount of new stations introduced it's more like it's more like a semi-frequent regional train like the RB/RE lines in Germany.
While also changing travel patterns throughout the region, and increasing frequencies on the Barrie, Stouffville, LSW, Kitchener, and LSE lines.
At last tally (2018, as per the CPTDB wiki), the Eglinton West bus currently has a similar ridership to the 510 Spadina line (38.5k), the Eglinton East bus a mere 23k. I don't see on what basis you say I will not be able to breathe on the Crosstown, especially if we don't expect ridership to double immediately.
Our subways get their ridership from bus transfers, not surrounding density. People currently travelling to the Bloor line on a N-S bus, will instead use the ECLRT. I'd be surprised if ridership didn't jump 1.5x within a couple of years. Not to mention the future Ontario Line connection and developments going in on the line.

And the 510 is hardly a prime example of transit service.
Again with the assertion that the service will not be fast and reliable. Have you ever actually ridden one of these Euro style tram lines without transit priority? I have, it's annoying to have to wait at traffic lights but it's not the end of the world and it's much faster than making the same trip by bus, especially during rush hour.
Again, "faster than the bus" is a really low bar for such a project.

And I have ridden those trams, called: the 510 and 512.
I think calling this kind of thing acting 'Toronto' is a misrepresentation. 20 years after its opening, the Sheppard line barely cracks 50k daily ridership and we're building a subway extension to replace line 3, which also has similar ridership to the 510 Spadina streetcar. "Acting Toronto" would be more like overbuilding our transit and not getting maximum value out of it for generations so that the population doesn't have to feel like second class citizens for riding a "fancy streetcar" instead of a subway.
Both were/are short projects that replace segments of existing trips, and don't provide any new connections, while the ECLRT will be a new line that runs across most of the city (especially after EWLRT),
And before you reply to this accusing me of a strawman, if you actually look at the discussions around the Scarborough subway, at comments made by both councillors and regular citizens, not wanting to feel like second class citizens while downtown gets their subways is exactly the reason we are building the SSE in the first place. LRT would've been more than adequate for the job.
You're right, SSE is hardly a model of good transit planning in Toronto. Eglinton West, SSE, and Yonge North are also mind-numbingly idiotic over-overpriced projects that are about politics rather than good transit.

On a slight tangent, I'd feel different about the eastern portion if EWLRT was at-grade or elevated. But since we're spending another $5 billion on that, the choice to make this section at-grade will have effects on future reliability.
Strawman. I never said anything about the 512 being a model for how transit should be built; I brought up the stop spacing on the BD line. Someone else brought up the 512. I quite agree that the 510 and 512 are maddening in how slow they are, but the lines exist, and avoiding them because they stop a bit more frequently than you or I would like is outlandish.
I avoid them because they're slower than alternatives - I might as well walk, since the speed of the 510 is not that much faster.
And, curiously, the BD line enjoys a daily ridership of almost 530,000. Maybe the station spacing isn't as big of a problem as I've been lead to believe.
It can have high ridership while also not being the ideal transit solution (in my opinion, at least).
 
Last edited:
500 meters walk maximum to a station. We need to properly maintain sidewalks and pedestrian accesses. Beyond that, if you can't walk 500 meters, maybe you should be using Wheel-Trans.
In what world, exactly, does 100% of your ridership live exactly on the road that the transit line runs on?

You know that their are neighbourhoods on either side of most roads where people will have to walk some distance - sometimes, as far as 500 metres - in order to just reach the road that the line runs on, nevermind an actual stop

Dan
 
In what world, exactly, does 100% of your ridership live exactly on the road that the transit line runs on?

You know that their are neighbourhoods on either side of most roads where people will have to walk some distance - sometimes, as far as 500 metres - in order to just reach the road that the line runs on, nevermind an actual stop

Dan
If we're going to go that way, the whole thing is made irrelevant, because most passengers are using buses to get to stations.
 
If we're going to go that way, the whole thing is made irrelevant, because most passengers are using buses to get to stations.
If you don't understand the question, then I would suggest that you don't understand the main problem you are trying to resolve.

Take a look at streets such as Finch, Sheppard or Lawrence. Then look both north and south of those streets. Those neighbourhoods also need to be able to access transit. If you putting stops every kilometre apart, there is the potential that people will have to walk 500 metres just to get to the major street, and then another 500 metres to access each stop. (And there are some places where people would have to walk almost a kilometre, but those are fewer, and generally in less dense areas.)

Toronto has done a good job of getting people within a reasonable walking distance from transit, but cutting stops is not going to help that.

Dan
 
If you don't understand the question, then I would suggest that you don't understand the main problem you are trying to resolve.

Take a look at streets such as Finch, Sheppard or Lawrence. Then look both north and south of those streets. Those neighbourhoods also need to be able to access transit. If you putting stops every kilometre apart, there is the potential that people will have to walk 500 metres just to get to the major street, and then another 500 metres to access each stop. (And there are some places where people would have to walk almost a kilometre, but those are fewer, and generally in less dense areas.)

Toronto has done a good job of getting people within a reasonable walking distance from transit, but cutting stops is not going to help that.

Dan

I think we need to be a bit more fine-grained/nuanced.

Distance between stops should vary by mode, by capacity needs and by median distance of trip traveled.

At all levels of service, in all modes we have some stops that are objectively (as much as anything can be), too close together; we also have some gaps that are excessive.

St Clair has perhaps the most infamous of the too close together stops, Bathurst and Vaughan at a whopping 159M apart

1659876913404.png


In that case, consolidating the two stops as Bathurst-Vaughan leaves you a distance that is still only 321M to Wychwood; and depending on exact stop positions, ~500M to Christie.

There are dozes of stops across the City on surface routes that are under ~300M apart, a number under 200M as well. Surely we can generally agree that is simply too close, particularly if removing a stop doesn't result in gap larger than ~400M

***

When it comes to what is meant to be rapid transit, LRT in its own ROW and/or underground, stop distances need to be larger, to have them too close together is capacity and speed limiting in a way that makes them much less effective and desirable as transit, and inflates operating costs.

Its perfectly reasonable to have underground lines with 1km gaps, anymore than that, and supplementary local service makes sense to give you better 'last mile connections.

The challenge with surface LRT is whether or not you want to run a supplementary service to fill gaps. In general the TTC lacks enthusiasm for this idea, which means closer stops are in order.
That said, I don't think you want them to come in much under 500M.

The example you out line of someone mid-way between major roads/transit in Scarborough is an interesting one; and one not easily addressed by any single project.

But lets try to look at a typical 'last mile gap'.

I've selected Eglinton-Lawrence, and VP - Warden as that block.
The N-S distance is 2km, leaving a maximum 1km walk, plus, the E-W distance between a major N-S road and one's home.
The Pharmacy-VP gap is ~400m for a max distance of 200M; while the Pharmacy-Warden gap is ~800m for a max distance of 400M.
In that context, if you keep stops on Eglinton and Lawrence 500M apart; if someone mid-way between Egliinton and Lawrence chose to walk to the E-W route, their max walk is ~1.4km

But why would they do this? There are N-S routes on each of VP, Pharmacy and Warden.
Assuming they would go the nearest transit stop, the maximum distance would be ~ 650M if they were mid-way between Warden and Pharmacy and mid-way between stops on those routes at 500M apart.
In that worst case scenario, I don't feel that walk is an extraordinary ask.

That said, I have no difficulty with the local bus on those N-S routes having stops slightly closer together.

But worth noting, if you shave the distance to 350M between stops; you're only reducing the maximum walk by 75M; but you're adding 5 stops for a passenger traveling from
Lawrence down to VP station (from 11 to 16) and adding roughly 3-4M travel time.

There's a balance to be struck, and it needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.

****

To add, I would argue a long-term solution for that block (and like ones) is an additional East-West street between Eglinton and Lawrence, which would support transit (albeit less frequent), provide a better last mile experience.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top