Tuck
Active Member
Unreal
- Thread starter ProjectEnd
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
I would love to see a bill of materials for the typical ML GO station - how many cubic meters of concrete, how many tons of steel, how many meters of conduit, how many (kilo)meters of cabling. Compare that to the gold standard of regional rail stations. I bet those other operators don't overbuild.
There are a few amenities that we need to add - snow melt platforms make good sense, for instance - but nobody gets frostbite while waiting for service on 15 minute headways. Our stations do not need to be hurricane proof.
- Paul
There are a few amenities that we need to add - snow melt platforms make good sense, for instance - but nobody gets frostbite while waiting for service on 15 minute headways. Our stations do not need to be hurricane proof.
- Paul
Northern Light
Superstar
I want to be careful what I say when I have not read the actual itemized budget........... but I feel comfortable saying the issue is less over-building than over-billing.
junctionist
Senior Member
I saw an interesting graphic on @thetransitguy's Instagram page comparing capital costs for Metrolinx's transit projects versus those in Italy. For those who can't see the graphic, it indicates that Metrolinx spends 17.9% of the typical project cost on stations versus 27.2% in Italy. Guess who tends to have better stations, Metrolinx or Italy? It's not an unfair comparison either, since Metrolinx runs the country's busiest transit hub, builds urban rapid transit, and builds regional transit stations--basically a smattering of everything.
According to the graphic, Metrolinx spends 55.8% of the budget on "soft costs", including professional services (e.g. engineers, consultants, and lawyers), contingency, escalation, property acquisition, and taxes. "Soft costs" only account for 23.9% of transit expansion project spending in Italy. The difference is stark, which inevitably gets made up with the quality of stations.
@thetransitguy's idea seems to be is that maintaining an experienced in-house design, engineering, and project management team is more cost effective in the long run for transit expansion because the team builds on its experience and passes it down from generation to generation. This approach potentially allows for more money to be spent on stations. Metrolinx could use this approach, as its projects are very expensive for stations that too often look like parking garages on the inside.
According to the graphic, Metrolinx spends 55.8% of the budget on "soft costs", including professional services (e.g. engineers, consultants, and lawyers), contingency, escalation, property acquisition, and taxes. "Soft costs" only account for 23.9% of transit expansion project spending in Italy. The difference is stark, which inevitably gets made up with the quality of stations.
@thetransitguy's idea seems to be is that maintaining an experienced in-house design, engineering, and project management team is more cost effective in the long run for transit expansion because the team builds on its experience and passes it down from generation to generation. This approach potentially allows for more money to be spent on stations. Metrolinx could use this approach, as its projects are very expensive for stations that too often look like parking garages on the inside.
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guavadelic
Active Member
Didnt realize it was that bad. Yikes.
Northern Light
Superstar
The graphic linked to by @junctionist above is a good one.
Its been posted here before, but no harm in adding it here.
Let me bring it forward:
Its been posted here before, but no harm in adding it here.
Let me bring it forward:
guavadelic
Active Member
well at least we know the main culprit behind the out of control capital costs. Considering how much Conservatives rail about "government waste" you'd think getting Metrolinx project costs under control would be priority #1.
Going forward projects shouldn't go to tender until most of the design work is completed. Unfortunately that doesn't go well with the 4 year political cycles and politicians rushing to make to announcements and cut ribbons.
drum118
Superstar
Any project that I have bid on, drawings were 100% done at the time of the tender. Have said that, we have seen changes take place after work has started caused by various things and it doesn't happen on every projects. Some are design flaws, change in type of equipment to be used on the site, a better way to do things that trades have come up that will save time and money at the end.
On the other hand with ML and their P3 projects, construction starts at 80% completed design to the point when 100% designs show up, it can see things get torn out and rebuilt at extra cost and delay to the project. Then there are the surprises that take place for items that were in the wrong locations, what is this and who is responsible for it?, how long it takes to determine if these items can remain or have to be relocated once new design drawings show up and what do you do while waiting for that info that can take days or weeks?,
Some projects see surprises as existing designs were not modify when changes took place in the past that will have ab impact on the new design drawings and is applies to ML and their P3 projects as well.
By right, there should be no surprises for this station other than soil condition based on what the site was use for the last 100 years.
This thread now has a brand new Database File (and subsequently a pin on the map) as we have some new imagery for you to check out now. See the link at the top of the page!
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Allandale25
Senior Member
Community Consultation Meeting coming up per an email received from the Metrolinx Toronto West newsletter.
Community Consultation Meeting
1325 Bloor Street West and 17 Dora Avenue
Join us at the virtual community consultation meeting where you can provide comments, ask questions, and speak with the project team.
Date: Thursday, April 3, 2025
Time: 6:00 PM – 8:30 PM
Join online by Webex:
Visit www.toronto.ca/CPconsultations for the registration link and instructions on how to join. We encourage you to join ten minutes before 6:00 p.m. to allow time to log on.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Further evidence we're not serious about fast transit expansion in this Province. As this is a Metrolinx [Provincial] project, they don't need to apply for anything except permits (and even then, they're well within their rights to strong arm the CBO's office into granting them). If there's something the Province should be using it's muscle on it's this. But instead we consult on this and rip out miles of bike lanes at great expense with but token, placating, fact-free, 'consulting' to back it up.
Northern Light
Superstar
They do not have to apply for permits either. They do, but its at their discretion, and largely a check on their people by the City, which they need, cause they can't do it properly themselves.
The province is using lots of muscle here.....its grossly overcharging the City for the work involved.......... The City isn't really fighting back, though they did decline the latest attempt to extort even more money.
****
I'm not sure why you sound like your dumping on the City for here........everything wrong with this project is on Mx.....
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Second sentence in parenthesis addresses this.
Good!
Not dumping on the City, purely the Province. I'm questioning why MLinx is even applying for a rezoning for this thing? Just effing do it.
dtmtp2022
New Member
Did anyone attend the community consultation meeting? Curious what they meant in the flyer by "removing waste and recycling requirements and reducing bicycle space dimensions"
smably
Senior Member
I was there. The waste and recycling requirements was about a zoning requirement that waste areas need to be fully enclosed. They will be building a partially enclosed area. For the bike parking, they are using a standard Metrolinx design that doesn't meet the dimensional requirements per bicycle in the zoning bylaw, i.e., denser than the city usually requires. I asked about this because it sounded extremely tight and a Metrolinx rep said it's because they use stacking hardware. This is what we're getting: