[EnviroTO]

Considering that all the other transit orders will be spread over other manufacturers (Bombardier, Siemens, Rotem, etc) and technologies (BRT, LRT, subway, rubber tired metro) it is pretty safe to say the plant building the TTC order will be building more TTC gauge LRT vehicles than not. Even between models the components are completely different. For example if the Toronto Siemens plant built an LRT for Calgary where the vehicles are high floor the wheel trucks are completely different anyways. Standard gauge wheels are all different diameters. A boxcar wheel and a low floor LRT wheel are completely different even when they are the same gauge. Whatever plant gets the low-floor LRT contract will be building more TTC gauge low-floor LRT vehicles than any other gauge. I would bet on it.

 

[kettal]

Even if they start building standard gauge vehicles for other cities, it won't be an earth shattering change to the factory.

 

[nfitz]

Grades, curve/turning radius requirements, etc. Would that not prevent the TC LRT vehicles from being deployed on current streetcar routes? That's what I've heard before. If I am wrong I stand corrected.

It's virtually the same vehicle, except for the double-ended bit. As far as I understand it, the tender doesn't have different technical specs for curvers, etc., for the initial and optional vehicles.

 

[MisterF]

If we are designing a network to get as many people of the roads as possible, I would suspect that inter-regional routes would be more important, no? The transit city routes will be carrying far more people, longer distances and connecting to many more extra-regional services than any of our streetcar routes today. Would that not mean that they deserve special consideration?

Well I hope the TC lines will carry more people, considering they cover the entire city while the downtown lines cover only a small part of it. But that small part is a much denser network than TC and connections to it are just as important as a connection across a municipal boundary. We may have to agree to disagree on this point.

I concede that your scenario is likely....unless, other cities get the jump on the TTC. The Hamilton case is a good example.

While it's possible that Hamilton might connect with the GTA network in the future, it's unlikely. The geography of Hamilton Harbour makes a connection even to Burlington difficult. As far as York and Peel go, their LRT networks are well into the future and the gauge they might use is a hypothetical question at this point, irrelevant to current TTC plans. The TTC has to make decisions based on what's already there, and York and Peel will do the same when the time comes...which would result in a single gauge across the GTA.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

At the current time, the 510 St. Clair uses the Roncesvalles carbarns to store and service its CLRV's. To enter service, the cars have to run from the Roncesvalles carbarn at Queensway and Roncesvalles, west on King to Bathurst, and north on Bathurst to St. Clair or Vaughan. The return is the reverse. A distance of approximately 8 km.
Should the 510 St. Clair be extended to Jane, the 510 St. Clair LFLRV's could use the Eglinton and Black Creek (maybe) carbarn to store them. They would only use Eglinton to get to Jane, then south on Jane to reach St. Clair. (The return would be, of course, the reverse.) That distance would be approximately 3 km. A distance that would be shorter and quicker, as long as the TTC gauge is used, of course.

 

[RedRocket191]

Brad Ross, Director of Corporate Communications, TTC [via Steve Munro]:

The Transit City network will be built to TTC gauge. Note that once the carbody structure, bogies, articulations etc. of the legacy system vehicles are proven through design, Finite Element Analyses, testing and validation, there will be savings in “proven†equipment and configuration for the TC vehicles, as well as savings through common tooling, manufacturing and quality control processes, if negotiation with the base vehicle carbuilder is successful.

TTC’s wider gauge also offers a wider aisle width and roomier interior, with little incremental construction cost, compared with a “standard gauge†vehicle.

Interoperability obviously involves more than track gauge. If Jane cars are required to operate on St. Clair, a whole host of challenges will have to be addressed, including tight radius curves and steep grades at St. Clair West station and short turn loops en route.

So basically, the Transit City cars will be able to operate on the downtown network provided they stay away from the tricky parts of the network.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

they could always modify the tricky parts of the existing downtown network. it's alot easier than converting the whole system.

 

[RedRocket191]

they could always modify the tricky parts of the existing downtown network. it's alot easier than converting the whole system.

Generally speaking, these tricky parts are curves at intersections. To modify them would involve broader curves that go onto the sidewalk or worse - into the building envelope. It's not possible at every intersection.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

at least downtown vehicles will be able to operate on TC lines if they ever need to and they could always route TC cars to avoid the incompatible track.

 

[nfitz]

they could always modify the tricky parts of the existing downtown network. it's alot easier than converting the whole system.

Presinably they will slowly do this as time and opportunities allow; perhaps they can deal with most of the issues before the next generation of vehicles - in 2045 or so.

 

[kEiThZ]

That settles it. I concede.

 

[Paleo]

Generally speaking, these tricky parts are curves at intersections. To modify them would involve broader curves that go onto the sidewalk or worse - into the building envelope. It's not possible at every intersection.

That sounds like an awfully huge expense for very little benefit. We haven't even talked about incompatible loops but I suppose you could install crossovers.

at least downtown vehicles will be able to operate on TC lines if they ever need to and they could always route TC cars to avoid the incompatible track.

When would they need to? Besides, TC lines will use crossovers. Any underground lines would almost certainly use islands. That throws a wrench into such plans.

The only 'benefit' I can see is for some people to feel good about connecting the two separate systems for the sake of connecting them. I don't see any operational case.

 

[RedRocket191]

When would they need to? Besides, TC lines will use crossovers. Any underground lines would almost certainly use islands. That throws a wrench into such plans.

The only 'benefit' I can see is for some people to feel good about connecting the two separate systems for the sake of connecting them. I don't see any operational case.

Operational efficiencies, as you could store any car closest to where it needs to be, regardless of what route it is designed to operate on. St. Clair cars could be stored at the Jane carhouse to reduce deadhead times from Roncesvalles.

Improved customer service, as you could send Jane LRT cars down through Swansea and into the core along the 501, 504 or Waterfront West route.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

a consistent TTC rail gauge throughout the city gives you options and possibilities for future needs that may or may not be apparent now.

 

[kettal]

Generally speaking, these tricky parts are curves at intersections. To modify them would involve broader curves that go onto the sidewalk or worse - into the building envelope. It's not possible at every intersection.

We should be working towards these goals. Next time intersection tracks need to be replaced, to build them at a decent radius.

And we should prepare for the eventual end of loops. Melbourne has a streetcar system that is as old as ours, but they have double-ended vehicles who just stop at the terminus and start again in the opposite direction.

Eventually, we should be able to run Transit City vehicles on the legacy network.

Of course this will take many years but it should be taken into account every time track is replaced.