[CDL.TO]

Unimaginative:

I've heard the argument from very sensible people that "At least the infrastructure is there, it can be fixed in the future." Well, it's been well over a decade on Spadina and there's no sign of fixing it.

I hope you note that most of those sensible people state this with along a caveat about how this would require a complete change in philosophy and operating practices at the TTC and the City.

So, at a cost of millions and a lot of enraged neighbours, we have a service that's no faster, and to top it all off will have significantly reduced frequency

Unless you know something I don't, I don't believe that there is any plan to reduce frequencies on St Clair (which can be pretty sparse to begin with) but instead to operate the same level of frequency but with fewer vehicles.

rbt:

I'm not sure we can blame the TTC for the issues on Spadina or St. Clair since it is really the works department (road folks) that are doing most of the designing work by adding constraints.

The more I watch operation on Spadina the more skeptical I get about the works department argument in relation to reliability. Just think about what the "signal priority" would entail: an extra transit-only light cycle before the left-turn signal and/or the possibility of holding a green light for a bit longer if a streetcar is approaching the intersection. The standard for most light-rail "priority" systems is guaranteeing that a vehicle ALWAYS gets a green signal, this is not and would never be the case on Spadina. Even with priority, a streetcar will still have the possibility of hitting a red light, completely left to chance. Heck, even with priority a streetcar would still have the possibility of hitting every single red light on the route, the only difference being that it would have to wait for 8 or seconds less.

So, signal priority on Spadina could potentially reduce travel times, not produce a consistent (reliable) travel time for the route. Relibility would still have to be dealt with with other methods. An attempt could be made to start doing this today, but there is no desire and apparently no demand. Why else do I see streetcars bunched at College southbound or King northbound?

Add a second priority detection mechanism 100m up the street from the light so the streetcar has a green when it gets to the intersection instead of waiting at the intersection itself.

Although this is what is used in most other light rail locations, it wouldn't really work here. You know that light cycles are limited by the time required for pedestrians to cross Spadina. Simply, the timing for most cross streets is already at or near the minimum. Just stand there and watch, just a few seconds after the white crossing man lights up, the hand starts flashing. Plus, traffic lights are only about 100m apart anyway.

scarberian:

People like to go on about how this stuff runs like clockwork in Germany, but we're not in Germany.

Alas, this sadly sums it all up, I think. Is there something inherently superior in technologies available to Germans than technologies available to Canadians? Is there something inherently superior about German people than Canadian people? Or is it that there a difference in attitudes and expectations about how public services like public transit should be operated?

 

[ShonTron]

Unless you know something I don't, I don't believe that there is any plan to reduce frequencies on St Clair (which can be pretty sparse to begin with) but instead to operate the same level of frequency but with fewer vehicles.

That's the worst-case scenerio plan. Service improvements (RGS and just demand-driven) would kick in by the time St. Clair, to Gunn's, would be complete, so we would more likely see the same # of vehicles provide somewhat better frequencies, using CLRV standards. Now with new much larger streetcars, we have to be vigilant that the TTC does not reduce frequencies much (particuarly evenings and weekends) to make up for the larger capacity

 

[doady]

Alas, this sadly sums it all up, I think. Is there something inherently superior in technologies available to Germans than technologies available to Canadians? Is there something inherently superior about German people than Canadian people? Or is it that there a difference in attitudes and expectations about how public services like public transit should be operated?

Obviously he was not talking about technologies, he was referring to the way cities have been built.

Berlin has subways extended very far into its suburbs, right to the urban fringe. If we copy their light rail and commuter rail system, why not their subway system as well? Why not a subway to Brampton or Pickering? If it works somewhere else then it must work here too, right?

 

[CDL.TO]

Obviously he was not talking about technologies, he was referring to the way cities have been built.

WTF? Uhh... "obviously" he was referring to light-rail/tram operations and reliability. How does "running like clockwork" relate to urban form? And I quote...

the proposed streetcar lines are all two or three times as long, which will complicate headways and frequencies, affecting wait and travel times. People like to go on about how this stuff runs like clockwork in Germany, but we're not in Germany.

 

[doady]

WTF? Uhh... "obviously" he was referring to light-rail/tram operations and reliability. How does "running like clockwork" relate to urban form? And I quote...

He wasn't talking about the superiority of the German people either, or the difference in attitudes between Germans and Canadians. How do these relate to light-rail/tram operations and reliabilty?

And yes, urban form does have an impact on light-rail operations and reliability. There is a reason that a ROW is being built on St. Clair and not Queen, for example.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Uh, I was obviously not talking about urban form, I was talking about transit operations. I actually was implying possible differences between Germans and Canadians...perhaps Germans just expect more from something like a transit network. For example, I'm sure they would have done *something* about Spadina's bunching after a decade of trouble.

CDL, I can't answer your questions because I've never been to Germany (or Europe or Asia...I mentioned Germany because it's brought up most often in this forum) and I don't know enough about those systems to speculate (although I do realize that storied accounts of foreign transit systems' successes are always coloured by tourist glasses and Toronto's problems are clouded with native self-loathing). I'm reluctant to support a wholesale revolution in operations and philosophy in the TTC and the city because they do do a lot of things right. I won't pretend to know exactly how to implement effective LRT in Toronto, I'll just know if it's working properly - or if I need to complain - by riding it.

As for the frequencies unimaginative2 mentioned, I think he was also predicting the loss of very frequent bus service on routes like Sheppard East if replaced by streetcars...in some cases the speed of the LRT would have to be more than significant to cancel out the loss in frequency since there's no way the streetcars will run as often as smaller buses do on busy routes.

 

[EnviroTO]

The good thing about these LRT lines in the inner burbs is that the spacing between stoplights is much greater than in the downtown where all the current routes are and in the worst location along Eglinton the plan is to place the LRT underground.

What I find silly about the yellow LRT vehicle being put on display and the blue one shown on the website as a display of future possible LRT vehicles is that they both seem too bulky to be seriously considered as a replacement for Toronto's streetcars. The Flexity Swift in Minneapolis is probably nothing like what would be needed to run on Toronto streets and something like the Flexity Outlook in Brussels makes more sense. The LRT in Minneapolis is wider and can't take turns anywhere near as sharp as those in Toronto. It will be something that has more articulations that will be able to handle Toronto's tight turns. If the TTC and council goes anywhere to study transit it should be Brussels for vehicles and infrastructure and to Japan and Germany for operations.

Toronto was going to have to pay the entire $830M for the Finch West streetcar before the province stepped in with this announcement.

I don't think the city ever planned on paying the total cost any more than it did when it did the RTES study to determine where subway extensions are most feasible. Toronto was getting ready to play the same game Mississauga was playing by saying it is moving ahead with the busway long before funding arrived and then accomplishing little and complaining about funding. They were trying to lure transit money and it paid off.

 

[roch5220]

Toronto was going to have to pay the entire $830M for the Finch West streetcar before the province stepped in with this announcement. .

Cmon, the City was never very serious about the finch west streetcar, because of the lack of surplus vehciles, new carhouse, and new maintenance facilities that would have to built to service it, due to the distance away. It wasn't on the radar, and no progress had been made (because of the lack of the new infrastructure that had to be built) even though it was identified as one of the top routes that could be converted, prior to transit city. So when you start your commentary based upon the finch west streetcar being an actual target of the city that 'was going to proceed' vs. the economic realities that the city never had it as high priority, and would never of funded it itself (especially with its current budget restraints), your argument gets confusing.

 

[CDL.TO]

CDL, I can't answer your questions because I've never been to Germany (or Europe or Asia...I mentioned Germany because it's brought up most often in this forum) and I don't know enough about those systems to speculate (although I do realize that storied accounts of foreign transit systems' successes are always coloured by tourist glasses and Toronto's problems are clouded with native self-loathing). I'm reluctant to support a wholesale revolution in operations and philosophy in the TTC and the city because they do do a lot of things right.

Well, they were rhetorical questions. I think it should be clear that there is nothing inherently superior about German people than Canadian people and that technology suppliers like Siemens or Bombardier are just as willing to consult in Canada as they are in Germany. You said it yourself, there's differences in attitudes and expectations. On the website of a certain local transit advocate, there is a posting of a notice from San Francisco for a multi-month project to assess what is causing unreliability on the J-Church light rail line and to increase on-time performance. I don't think than SF has a particularily good system, but when can we expect a similar clear effort to improve reliability here in Toronto?

I guess I wasn't clear, but I was only referring to unimaginative's comments on reliability and nothing else. There's no need for a wholesale revolution at the TTC. There's no need to fix what ain't broke. But what does seem to be broken is reliability on streetcar lines, and things NEED to change.

As for the frequencies unimaginative2 mentioned, I think he was also predicting the loss of very frequent bus service on routes like Sheppard East if replaced by streetcars

He was specifically referring to the St Clair project and that is what I was responding to.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Re: the city not being serious about building Transit City on its own. So, now we reject subways based on cost, plan for even more expensive streetcar lines that we have no intention of paying for, then immediately reap a windfall of provincial funding that would have paid for the subways...wonderful!

I thought the Minneapolis system worked pretty well...as for the turns, there aren't any on routes like Eglinton or Jane, so those vehicles could work here, but I'm sure the TTC wants a standard vehicle running on every streetcar route and tight turns are required downtown.

If Toronto was at all serious about improving service, they would start by implementing Rocket express branches on every major bus route.

I think it should be clear that there is nothing inherently superior about German people than Canadian people and that technology suppliers like Siemens or Bombardier are just as willing to consult in Canada as they are in Germany. You said it yourself, there's differences in attitudes and expectations.

Yeah, I think it was also obvious that I was also not referring to German superiority...you opened that can of worms The questions I said I can't answer are the ones about German attitudes and expectations regarding transit.

I guess I wasn't clear, but I was only referring to unimaginative's comments on reliability and nothing else. There's no need for a wholesale revolution at the TTC. There's no need to fix what ain't broke. But what does seem to be broken is reliability on streetcar lines, and things NEED to change.

Based on how nothing is changing on the streetcar, it's very easy to assume they think they're fine and don't need an overhaul. The problem is now they're planning more routes - will they be modeled after Spadina or Queen or after a more successful system somewhere else? If they think Spadina is fine and should be the model for Don Mills or Jane, then something is broken at the TTC and needs fixing. There's probably language in some document that indicates where the inspiration for Transit City's streetcars will come from - do you know if it's Toronto's existing lines?

He was specifically referring to the St Clair project and that is what I was responding to.

I only mentioned it because he was referring to St. Clair in the explicit context of predicting/projecting Spadina- and St. Clair-style streetcar service onto a half dozen suburban arterial roads...I know he's brought up the bus frequency vs streetcar speed question a number of times.

 

[roch5220]

Re: the city not being serious about building Transit City on its own. So, now we reject subways based on cost, plan for even more expensive streetcar lines that we have no intention of paying for, then immediately reap a windfall of provincial funding that would have paid for the subways...wonderful!
.

What, you think the city would fund a $5 billion dollar project, by themselves, especially given the city's current finance issues. Talking about blatenly obvious.

And yes, the city reaps the benefit of getting a large LRT grid network that provides vital underserved corridors with vital transit upgrades that benefits many more residents, then Vs. getting one DRL subway line, which TOTAL costs would be ballpark similar.

In fact, based upon your costing argument, the City is getting many LRT lines, of which, the crosstown eglington line will be underground for approx 10kms, for less than what they will have to spend on extending the subway to Vaughan. Talk now about what is expensive. Ie. Free, vs sharing the 1/3 with Vaughan.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Transit City will cost more than $6 billion, and the DRL could cost about $2 billion...you go on about my math but there's $4 billion missing there.

The city won't reap any benefits from having billions spent replacing buses with streetcars on roads like Morningside, especially because of all the proposed GO improvements. Finch West and Sheppard East aren't connected, Don Mills doesn't go downtown, etc...it's not a network, just a political game of bringing streetcars to every ward.

Oh, and we're getting the Spadina extension for free, too.

 

[EnviroTO]

Transit City will cost more than $6 billion, and the DRL could cost about $2 billion...you go on about my math but there's $4 billion missing there.

There is no way the entire DRL could be built for $2B. For $1B you could get todays Sheppard Line from Yonge to Don Mills... a straight 6km or less line with one river obstacle and no other serious obstacles to deal with. With the huge obstacle of the Don Valley a DRL starting at Danforth would probably not reach Eglinton before the $1B ran out. To build the DRL from Union to Pape and on to Don Mills station would probably cost a little more than $4B . Transit City with $6B delivers seven routes, not just the DRL. The $6B spent on Transit City would not have paid for DRL East Line (Don Mills), DRL West Line (Jane), Eglinton Line, Sheppard West / Finch Extension, Sheppard East Extension, and light rail on Waterfront West and Morningside.

I stand by my belief that this light rail project is exactly what the city needs at this time to force better planning based on capacity and true need in the future. With Transit City built and the Yonge-Spadina line extended to their limits, future subway construction after this is all over will end up being built in the right place to deal with real overcrowding and need. That doesn't happen now because every area under served by transit wants a subway. Now those areas will need to justify why they need more than LRT because LRT will become the default transit upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised if the construction of Transit City leads to the DRL subway being built sooner than we realize because all that new ridership will overload the subway system.

 

[roch5220]

Transit City will cost more than $6 billion, and the DRL could cost about $2 billion...you go on about my math but there's $4 billion missing there..

Well now, I am no longer only questioning your math, if you think that the DRL would only cost $2 Billion. Considering the spadina 8 km extension costs more, and the built up urban density is by no way as complex as it would east of union.

Well, atleast I understand where you are coming from with your costing of subway lines that are well below actual, by a multiple.

 

[roch5220]

The city won't reap any benefits from having billions spent replacing buses with streetcars on roads like Morningside, especially because of all the proposed GO improvements. Finch West and Sheppard East aren't connected, Don Mills doesn't go downtown, etc...it's not a network, just a political game of bringing streetcars to every ward.

Actually, Don Mills DOES go downtown. There is already streetcar service between broadview stn and downtown. The Don Mills new LRT line just connects with it, and flows north from their.