[AlvinofDiaspar]

In a city where one of our sins is far too many poles in sidewalks (on most roads), extra garbage cans should not be an issue, you just chain them to the poles, failing that put them in groups of 4 chained to each other. (in a square)

The concern isn't the cans being thrown - but that they can be a depository (hence removal of trash bins in Tokyo after the Aum cult attacks, and the move to exposed bags on TTC)

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

The concern isn't the cans being thrown - but that they can be a depository (hence removal of trash bins in Tokyo after the Aum cult attacks, and the move to exposed bags on TTC)

AoD

I suppose, but I view this as generally inflated risk perception.

Equally, I think much like vehicle bollards protecting 2 blocks of sidewalk where there has never been a criminal attempt at vehicular homicide, but leaving open the sidewalk where such an event did take place, it simply doesn't
strike me as particularly effective.

I don't want to publicly outline exactly how easy it would be to leave an IED in a public place.......as it could serve as an instruction manual to an idiot.......suffice to say, I don't see removing bins or clear bag open receptacles as doing anything useful.

 

[picard102]

People are slobs.

To be fair, the garbage cans were rammed full along the entire street, and the parade itself generates half of the garbage with the stuff they throw out into the crowds.

 

[Natika33]

We don’t enforce any of the laws and bylaws against what I would call public nuisance, such as littering, vandalism, and requiring property owners to remove graffiti. Look in any ravine, underpass or green space downtown and you’ll see tons of litter and crap. And then there’s the public intoxication and erratic wigged out people. I suggest that beat cops would help. Get our cops out of their cars, off of their bikes and horses, and onto their feet.

While we are advocating for Japanese solutions, let's not stop at the "beat cop" system and instead go straight to a "police box" (koban) system whereby there are always at least two cops on duty per district in a visible mini outpost.

Makes it easy to find an officer when you need one, plus they become very protective and well-versed in their own area... including knowing who the suspicious characters are versus the merely eccentric.

 

[Admiral Beez]

While we are advocating for Japanese solutions, let's not stop at the "beat cop" system and instead go straight to a "police box" (koban) system whereby there are always at least two cops on duty per district in a visible mini outpost.

Makes it easy to find an officer when you need one, plus they become very protective and well-versed in their own area... including knowing who the suspicious characters are versus the merely eccentric.

I like it, let’s do it.

I just think we’ve given up downtown. If you walk by Cassy House on Isabella for example, you see trash everywhere. And I can’t blame the city workers, as there are junkies and their dangerous castoffs all over the place.

 

[T3G]

In fairness, is there any part of the city that doesn't feel like we've given up on? In the case of the suburbs, those places were abandoned at the moment they were thought of.

 

[Northern Light]

While we are advocating for Japanese solutions, let's not stop at the "beat cop" system and instead go straight to a "police box" (koban) system whereby there are always at least two cops on duty per district in a visible mini outpost.

Makes it easy to find an officer when you need one, plus they become very protective and well-versed in their own area... including knowing who the suspicious characters are versus the merely eccentric.

As with many challenges we discuss in Toronto, including those around public realm and public safety, centralization is often the enemy. When people are removed from more local environments, they simply become less familiar with them, but also in turn have less sense of 'ownership' of any problems.

They also become more 'aloof' from the general public and the community they serve.

Not everything can be divided up in highly local districts, some services make sense to consolidate fully or partially.

That police have a single homicide unit makes sense, but the way they manage resources better thought of us as local (patrol, emergency response, traffic, street crime etc) is a problem

I'm not opposed to the model you're advocating above, though I would point out, that to staff a mini-station with 2 officers, 24/7 would equal 12 officers, The City recognizes 158 neighbourhoods, is this represented 100% new deployment, that's 1,816 additional officers, who, factoring for uniforms, rent, kit, hr/back office support, will cost about 200k a pop to deploy. That's well over 300M in additional costs each year.

That's not an argument against it, just something to mull over.

One question your idea raises for me, is simply getting police to change strategies on how concentrated the divisions are now. What is Scarborough had 5 instead of 3; what if Beaches/EY/Danforth had 2, instead of 1., and what if these didn't a
all look like fortresses, but we're, instead, on main streets, and encouraged the public to walk-in and say 'hi'? It would be expensive to un-do, what we've done, but if we did it as each station comes up for replacement, and blended that with more the more community model on a limited scale, I think it might be both wise and affordable, over time.

*****

Lets note as well, to bring this back to public realm, that this is the same issue that besets Parks, it besets 311, etc etc. People too far removed from their responsibilities, too many people not connected to the end-users of a the service. The old City of Toronto used to have the majority of Parks Yards in Parks! Can you imagine? The Supervisor, the lawn mower, the carpenter/foreperson, the horticulturalist (flower beds and landscape maintenance) and the front-line staff all in one place, and every time you left the office, you were literally in the park, looking at it, and seeing anything that needed attention.

With 311, the challenge is that they are not Parks or Transportation or Waste Management. They aren't experts at problem solving, nor is it their responsibility. They write a ticket and send it off. Centrally located, they probably don't know your local street or park.

This doesn't mean there isn't a use for 311 service, but there should be less uses for it and more responsibility should be returned to departments, to districts and to front-line staff, whose contact information should be easily available to the public.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In fairness, is there any part of the city that doesn't feel like we've given up on? In the case of the suburbs, those places were abandoned at the moment they were thought of.

Yesterday I was shopping at Spadina and Lonsdale in Forest Hill and I thought to myself, look no litter, no beggars or junkies. Just a nice street of shops, markets and cafes. I'll take this for the rest of the city please.

 

[DSCToronto]

As with many challenges we discuss in Toronto, including those around public realm and public safety, centralization is often the enemy. When people are removed from more local environments, they simply become less familiar with them, but also in turn have less sense of 'ownership' of any problems.

They also become more 'aloof' from the general public and the community they serve.

Not everything can divided up in highly local districts, some services make sense to consolidate fully or partially.

That police might have a single homicide unit makes sense, that the way they manage resources better thought of us as local (patrol, emergency response, traffic, street crime etc) is a problem

I'm not opposed to the model your advocating above, though I would point out, that to staff a mini-station with 2 officers, 24/7 would equal 12 officers, The City recognizes 158 neighbourhoods, is this represented 100% new deployment, that's 1,816 additional officers, who, factoring for uniforms, rent, kit, hr/back office support, will cost about 200k a pop to deploy. That's well over 300M in additional costs each year.

That's not an argument against it, just something to mull over.

One question your idea raises for me, is simply getting police to change strategies on how concentrated the divisions are now. What is Scarborough had 5 instead of 3; what if Beaches/EY/Danforth had 2, instead of 1., and what if these didn't a
all look like fortresses, but we're, instead, on main streets, and encouraged the public to walk-in and say 'hi'? It would be expensive to un-do, what we've done, but if we did it as each station comes up for replacement, and blended that with more the more community model on a limited scale, I think it might be both wise and affordable, over time.

*****

Lets note as well, to bring this back to public realm, that this is the same issue that besets Parks, it besets 311, etc etc. People too far removed from their responsibilities, too many people not connected to the end-users of a the service. The old City of Toronto used to have the majority of Parks Yards in Parks! Can you imagine? The Supervisor, the lawn mower, the carpenter/foreperson, the horticulturalist (flower beds and landscape maintenance) and the front-line staff all in one place, and every time you left the office, you were literally in the park, looking at it, and seeing anything that needed attention.

With 311, the challenge is that they are not Parks or Transportation or Waste Management. They aren't experts at problem solving, nor is it their responsibility. They write a ticket and send it off. Centrally located, they probably don't know your local street or park.

This doesn't mean there isn't a use for 311 service, but there should be less uses for it and more responsibility should be returned to departments, to districts and to front-line staff, whose contact information should be easily available to the public.

One thing the City could/should do is to encourage ALL City staff to report problems when they see them driving or walking around. There are Transportation and "Public Works" staff outa ll them time, they need a way to encourage them to report problems. Ideally they could use 311 but if you phone 311 you waste what seems like 2 minutes getting messages on No swearing at staff, warning your personal info may be requested and PSAs how wonderful life is here or special items.

 

[Admiral Beez]

One question your idea raises for me, is simply getting police to change strategies on how concentrated the divisions are now.. and what if these didn't a all look like fortresses, but we're, instead, on main streets, and encouraged the public to walk-in and say 'hi'?

I was in the Rexall at Winchester and Parliament a few weeks back and two TPS officers walked in. The staff and a few customers asked if everything was okay, and they replied we're just walking and saying hello. Which is a great start, but it doesn't help that they look like they're dressed for combat.

 

[Mihairokov]

I was in the Rexall at Winchester and Parliament a few weeks back and two TPS officers walked in. The staff and a few customers asked if everything was okay, and they replied we're just walking and saying hello. Which is a great start, but it doesn't help that they look like they're dressed for combat.

The key difference and nuance that we're missing b/w using Asian comparables with police to here is that their police are functionally different than ours. At least in my experience their police fall somewhere between our security guards and police, where although they do have legal authority they're not carrying weapons or guns on them and so they lack that public intimidation and presence that they have here. They're far more like community support than militarized police.

It's nice that our stores or parks might have "security guards" in high-vis vests roaming around but they're functionally useless aside from being a warm body. I was out last evening in a (new) public park with a few security guards sitting around on fold-out chairs as people in a back corner were being loud and obnoxious. When the firefighters (?) arrived after a call over someone being drunk in public they came and asked me where they were instead of asking the security guards which I guess highlights a whole slew of overarching issues with our public health and wellness system.

I guess we can fantasize about us using the Koban system but it would require such a functional change in how our police operate that I doubt it ever sees consideration. We don't have community outreach officers in that way and they're not tied to our neighborhoods in that way. I highly doubt any police officers live in my neighborhood or have any attachment to it whatsoever, which is another underlying issue, not just for police but for any public servant in general.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I was in the Rexall at Winchester and Parliament a few weeks back and two TPS officers walked in. The staff and a few customers asked if everything was okay, and they replied we're just walking and saying hello. Which is a great start, but it doesn't help that they look like they're dressed for combat.

Remember ours wasn't either until Fantino decided they need to look good in black.

The key difference and nuance that we're missing b/w using Asian comparables with police to here is that their police are functionally different than ours. At least in my experience their police fall somewhere between our security guards and police, where although they do have legal authority they're not carrying weapons or guns on them and so they lack that public intimidation and presence that they have here. They're far more like community support than militarized police.

It's nice that our stores or parks might have "security guards" in high-vis vests roaming around but they're functionally useless aside from being a warm body. I was out last evening in a (new) public park with a few security guards sitting around on fold-out chairs as people in a back corner were being loud and obnoxious. When the firefighters (?) arrived after a call over someone being drunk in public they came and asked me where they were instead of asking the security guards which I guess highlights a whole slew of overarching issues with our public health and wellness system.

I guess we can fantasize about us using the Koban system but it would require such a functional change in how our police operate that I doubt it ever sees consideration. We don't have community outreach officers in that way and they're not tied to our neighborhoods in that way. I highly doubt any police officers live in my neighborhood or have any attachment to it whatsoever, which is another underlying issue, not just for police but for any public servant in general.

We don't have to look at that far - there are models of policing in the Anglosphere that is far less militarized (e.g. UK, Australia). Canada an anomaly thanks to cultural contamination from the US.

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

The key difference and nuance that we're missing b/w using Asian comparables...

I know it can't work here, but I fell in love with Singapore's sense of public safety and neatness. For starters, there is zero litter or graffiti. Parks are well manicured. And forget about public nuisance like intoxication, open drug use or vagrancy. For starters, in Singapore where narcotics possession is a capital offense, illegal drug use will get you a long jail term, at best. And there is no homelessness, since the government owns all property, and if you are a Singaporean citizen, housing is provided. If you're not a Singaporean citizen and are homeless or otherwise not employed, you are deported. The concept of asylum-seeking migrants, junkies or the insane congregating outside emergency shelters, pissing in corners, or living with collections of trash in ravines is unheard of there. As a visitor from the west, it was a little strange as every other westerner I met was sane, sober and stable - you start to ask yourself, where are the nutters? Anyway, when it comes to the public realm, many Asian cities and countries do it so much better than us.

 

[evandyk]

I got off the streetcar at Yonge and Richmond this morning and realized that unless CF or someone posts 24 hour security there, that boarded up stretch of Richmond between Bay and Yonge is going to essentially be a camping ground until the winter. There must have been a dozen sets of people who had slept there, and two security guards hanging around watching them wake up.

Needless to say, there was garbage everywhere. An entire boarded up block in that location is a big problem.

 

[Towered]

Remember ours wasn't either until Fantino decided they need to look good in black.



We don't have to look at that far - there are models of policing in the Anglosphere that is far less militarized (e.g. UK, Australia). Canada an anomaly thanks to cultural contamination from the US.

AoD

Bring back the light blue shirts. They looked much friendlier.