[Santas Clone]

I haven't posted here in a very long time, but I figure I'll weigh in on this one.

I'm more or less in agreement with what a lot of posters have stated so far.

The subway should be for medium distance travel. VCC should absolutely be the last stop for the Spadina section, BD could go maybe as far as MCC. Otherwise, new construction should focus on lines within the city of Toronto itself (finish Sheppard, Eglinton, DRL, Queen). The subway simply has to many stops in order to be a speedy option for longer distance travel.

GO should transform itself from a commuter rail into a regional rail network, which can run locals, expresses, etc. throught the day (but less frequent than the subway), and from all regions to the other. This of course, would be expensive, requiring track upgrades, new construction, and likely some tunnelling. The first thing it needs is some sort of cross town service.

To compare it to another city, lets use Toyko. I see the TTC subway as the equivalent of Tokyo Metro + TOEI subway services, which provide extensive coverage to Tokyo itself. GO would then be equivalent to JR, which provides longer distance services, to the surrounding areas.

 

[ahrvojic]

If you had GO offering service to Union every 20 minutes on a dedicated rail corridor from MCC this would easily be quicker than trying to make the same trip on a subway. Even if you had to wait the full 20 minutes for a train the trip itself would take maybe 10 minutes meaning 30 minutes is likely the longest time it would take. Im not sure about others, but I would rather wait around a train station for even 15 or 20 minutes and then have a quick trip downtown than spend a few minutes waiting for a subway, but having to spend 30 minutes or more actually in transit.

Makes sense, though as you point out, it's the waiting where commuters really take a hit. A rush hour GO trip from Cooksville to Union currently takes about 25 min, but in my experience that easily doubles after factoring in waiting time, nevermind the inconvenience of getting there even from MCC (a separate problem, granted).

Something like this would be ok as long as the trip itself was around 10 min, with an absolute maximum wait time of 20 min all day. We'd still need some sort of rapid connection to the subway for destinations in between, though I guess that could either be provided by this solution or local LRT.

I just wonder if this would really be that much faster and cheaper than simply extending the subway in MCC's specific case. A subway trip from MCC to Kipling I don't think would take longer than 10 min (right?), making the trip to St. George about 30 min max and the subway option competitive in terms of time. Also there would have to be significant tunneling for both options at MCC, since I can't picture how else any new line would get to Square One, while a subway extension also wouldn't necessarily have to be underground the whole way from Kipling. Maybe the maintenance for the subway option would balloon its long-term price in comparison? Even after factoring in the cost of dedicated GO tracks and solving the CN/CP problem?

 

[Brighter Hell]

A vehicle similar to the one Antiloop showed could easily run down Hurontario into the heart of MCC. It wouldn't be anywhere near the cost of a subway extension. As for the frequency, I'm sure it would run at whatever frequency demand warrants.

 

[spmarshall]

Something like this would be ok as long as the trip itself was around 10 min, with an absolute maximum wait time of 20 min all day. We'd still need some sort of rapid connection to the subway for destinations in between, though I guess that could either be provided by this solution or local LRT.

You are going to need warp speed to get 10 minutes from MCC to downtown Toronto. A MCC diversion with 15-20 minutes would be about 25-30 minutes, about the same as GO (taking into account an urban frequency regional rail system would have a few extra stops, but would have faster acceleration/deceleration than a monster 10 car GO train).

I can't see the subway from Kipling to MCC taking 10 minutes, more like 15-20 - there would be stops at Sherway, Dixie, Cawthra (at the least). It would still probably be faster than the busway though. You're looking at 60 minutes to downtown with the subway, versus 30 minutes max by regional rail.

Too bad MCC was built in such a way to make future rapid transit more difficult to reach it. Yet another reason why I really like Port Credit.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"VCC should absolutely be the last stop for the Spadina section, BD could go maybe as far as MCC."

You know, if an extension only another 2km long than the length of Kipling-MCC was added to Spadina, it would hit both Vaughan Mills and Wonderland...then again, some would say it's crazy to go north of York U (and some would say it's a waste to go there). Even MCC is not a universally obvious terminus - from Kipling you can go to the airport.

"making the trip to St. George about 30 min max and the subway option competitive in terms of time."

It'd be more like 40 minutes, but even then it would be competitive for some people once you factor in travelling to MCC and away from Union (let's assume the fare issues are dealt with by then). In a perfect world, we'd build both.

 

[doady]

How would a commuter rail-style line service MCC better than a subway? Most people in MCC do not go to downtown Toronto. Most transit users in Mississauga use the local transit system, and don't see how you people ignore the need for better transit in this category. The last thing MCC needs is more car traffic because people drive in to park at the station for the diverted Milton line.

And it is sad that certain people praise Port Credit for its rapid transit connection, when in fact MCC has much better transit connections overall. There are more people taking the bus from Square One to York Univserity everyday than there are people taking the train from Port Credit to downtown, and the people taking the York University bus do not park-and-ride.

While there may be some need for commuter rail in MCC, but the need for a subway is greater.

Build a Crosstown LRT along the hydro corridor and ROW preserved for the BRT to connect MCC to Airport Corporate Centre, York University and NYCC. This would connect with the Yonge line at Finch and also a future Eglinton subway. This a much better option than simply diverting the Milton line, which would still be costly and require the removal of the Cooksville and Erindale GO stations. The Crosstown line can also be extended to Oakville and Scarborough.

Mississauga Transit would then just have to build its own subway line along Hurontario to connect to MCC and the rest of the corridor to the Crosstown, Milton and Lakeshore GO lines and therefore the rest of the GTA. And of course, a subway would also greatly decrease the travel times along Hurontario and rpelace the buses. With just two new rail lines, the problem of both local and long-distance travel in Mississauga is solved.

 

[ahrvojic]

You are going to need warp speed to get 10 minutes from MCC to downtown Toronto. A MCC diversion with 15-20 minutes would be about 25-30 minutes, about the same as GO (taking into account an urban frequency regional rail system would have a few extra stops, but would have faster acceleration/deceleration than a monster 10 car GO train).

That sounds more realistic to me as well, though even if the subway from MCC would take longer than 30 min, I don't think it would take 60 min either. Maybe around 40 then as Scarberian says and I completely agree that even that would be competitive given the current commuting options. In any case, an urban frequency rail system that ran all day through SQ1 would be a vast improvement over the current Milton line, that's for sure, especially with GTTA fare integration. And both solutions would still require a decent local feeder network that used more than buses.

But the main stumbling block that remains is figuring out where such a diversion would go! It couldn't run down Hurontario or Dundas since there are already plans for local LRT there. I think this is my biggest problem with the idea and what moves it closer to the subway side of things in my mind. I still need to improve my understanding of this area, I guess.

Too bad MCC was built in such a way to make future rapid transit more difficult to reach it.

Agreed, the GTA is so frustratingly piecemeal. It's as if no one could foresee that the region would eventually merge into one urban mass and each municipality planned its own island either in ignorance or outright defiance. I doubt this reality was so difficult to imagine even 30 years ago.

 

[cdl42]

A Milton line diversion could follow the 403 hydro corridor and reconnect to the line around Creditview Road. This could allow passengers a quicker and more comfortable trip to MCC from areas such as Erin Mills, Streetsville, and Meadowvale. If fares were integrated, MT could move to a hub-and-spoke system with buses centred on the GO stations, like how the TTC buses radiate from subway stations. As stated, service should be tailored to demand. This would greatly increase pedestrian traffic and office and condo desireability in MCC.

So basically, it would be a subway, only rather than running on the "local" subway tracks east of Kipling, it would run on the "express" mainline tracks direct to downtown. Far greater benefit with far less tunneling required than a TTC subway extension.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Or the line to MCC could be a spur from the Milton line, which is the way most cities service suburban nodes. There's no reason to divert the whole thing.

 

[Chuck100]

I find it a bit ridiculous to be talking about commuter lines and subways, when at the same time surface transit is so lacking. What good is a heavy rail station when there's either nothing in the local area (anything in the suburbs) or when there isn't convenient surface transit to take you where you need to go after getting off the train (pretty much anything north of St. Clair).

Build subways wherever you want, build commuter rail wherever you want, but realize that surface transit is the real backbone of the transit system. If we're going to double the trackage of the subway system, ridership has to more than double in order to make it worthwhile. Phrased differently, the TTC will have to be carrying over 700 million riders a year or more. The only way that's ever going to happen is if getting around the entire city by transit, particularly in areas far from the subway, is made more convenient.

Look at Sheppard. The area is typical Toronto suburban, which means that to a good 50% of people or more, buses are impractical. When you build a subway line without improving connecting routes, and that only has maybe 300 additional parking spots, of course it will operate well under capacity! Clearly the 130,000 people who used east west bus routes in North York east of Yonge prior to the subway's opening wasn't nearly enough to fill trains. Using existing surface transit ridership to justify subway expansion is pointless.

 

[spmarshall]

That is exactly the point of the ridership growth strategy.

But if we can improve the subway and regional rail systems, then many people will spend less time on surface transit. People won't necessarily be stuck on Route 39 all the way to Finch Station if they can board a frequent, fare coordinated regional rail train on the Stouffville corridor, likewise, Rexdale will suddenly be much more conmnected via a 10 minute bus ride to Woodbine or Etobicoke North versus a 30-40 minute bus ride to Kipling, Islington or Wilson station.

And there's enough places that's easy to get to from sufrace transit after getting off a subway that's north of St. Clair, I'd say much of the area between Keele and Don Mills north of St. Clair is close enough to the YUS subway, and on the east-west streets, buses are frequent enough in most times of the day to feed into it (though many of these routes could be improved more in the off peak).

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Chuck: I wouldn't disagree with what you are saying. Obviously surface transit is critical and important to the overall network and large investments must continue to revitalize and rebuild capacity and network functionality.

But the debate about subway vs. regional rail is not trying to pit it against buses and streetcars. Its about determining which option makes more sense for serving the more suburban regions of the GTA.

Even then, this conversation, which comes up often and will continue to do so, is less about the technical aspects and more so about the need to explore new ideas. Yes subways have a place in the overall transit network of Toronto, but when it is the only idea that people ever talk about it gets frustrating when there are a number of options out there that in many cases would serve to do the job better and most cost effectively.

In the case of regional rail the reason I personally, and I would suspect many others, are so strongly in favour of the idea is because we have studied the idea and seen how it works in other cities across the world and have made the connection that this model makes perfect sense for a city like Toronto both in terms of being an effective mode of transportation, but also I might add, a smart choice financially.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"realize that surface transit is the real backbone of the transit system."

One big reason why it is the backbone is because the rapid transit coverage is so pitiful.

I would definitely not call surface transit in this city "so lacking." The majority of bus routes run smoothly and on time most of the time, including all of the routes I take on a regular basis. In my opinion, it's the downtown surface routes that invariably suck the most - who would honestly say service on Finch East, Wilson, or Eglinton East is inconvenient? The addition of rocket express service along all major streets would improve both ridership figures and efficiency.

"Clearly the 130,000 people who used east west bus routes in North York east of Yonge prior to the subway's opening wasn't nearly enough to fill trains. Using existing surface transit ridership to justify subway expansion is pointless."

You simply can't use the stubway to support this argument. A few people along Finch shuttle themselves down to the new line, but the benefits of doing the same for people along Steeles, York Mills, or Lawrence - even for some people along Sheppard - haven't been realized due to the line's abortion in the Don Mills trimester.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think long distance travel and short-medium distance travel should be separated in people's minds. One shouldn't expect to use a short-medium distance mode of travel (i.e. Bus/Streetcar->BRT/LRT->Subway) and expect to go as fast as a car on a freeway over a long distance. One should expect that speed from a long distance form of commuter transit (i.e. Regional BRT->Regional Rail).

I think the best city transportation plan is the one that realizes that:

a) Widening a freeway is a very short term gain at the expense of sprawl and loss of potential transit ridership.
b) Both short-medium and long distance transit options should be available across the city and should work together.
c) that services should ideally be implemented along a route in a progression from Bus/Streetcar to BRT/LRT to Subway or from Regional Bus to Regional Rail as demand dictates. Exceptions should only be made when skipping the BRT/LRT phase makes sense because high construction costs along a route or land availability issues for BRT/LRT makes installation of a subway more cost effective.

Based on these criteria the York extension does not make sense. A BRT/LRT ROW has not been built yet and obviously such an ROW has not reached capacity yet. Also, there are not any serious constraints that would prevent a BRT/LRT ROW being installed along the route.

With the SRT implementing a subway makes complete sense. A BRT/LRT is running the route in an isolated ROW and has reached capacity. Subway installation is the obvious next step in the short-medium distance travel hierarchy.

The good news is that Toronto City Council does not seem to be rushing to widen roads and freeways. The bad news is that the little funding Toronto has for transit is being used on major upgrades where minor upgrades could provide the increase in capacity required, and the TTC's ridership growth strategy is poorly funded with fares increasing while no matching increase in transit service is provided.

 

[doady]

A Milton line diversion could follow the 403 hydro corridor and reconnect to the line around Creditview Road. This could allow passengers a quicker and more comfortable trip to MCC from areas such as Erin Mills, Streetsville, and Meadowvale. If fares were integrated, MT could move to a hub-and-spoke system with buses centred on the GO stations, like how the TTC buses radiate from subway stations.

You people keep ignoring the fact that most people in Mississauga work close to home. And most of the ones that do work far away don't even work in downtown Toronto so I dont' know why this assinine idea of diverting the Milton lines keeps bign brought up. Any attempt to reconfigure Mississauga's entire transit system to long-distance travel is pointless.

Remember GO Transit isn't REAL transit. GO stations belong in industrial parks and other low density areas to maximise the amount of parking space, not in MCC.