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Amare said:
Knowing Doug, he'd probably find some kind of sick way of using the court system to screw Toronto around. Unfortunately we arent dealing with rational thinking premier when it comes to just about everything, so that would likely backfire hard.
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It might; but I decline to accept defeat before putting up a fight.

Yes, the province can find any number of ways to make life difficult for Toronto; but the City can easily return the favour.

Imagine if an encampment set up on the grounds of Queen's Park, including the front lawn, and spread to the adjacent road and blocked access to the parking garage where the Premier parks. It would be a shame if the police were unable to find the resources to do anything about that, wouldn't it?

An extreme suggestion, but my point stands. If the City, and its leader, show some spine, there are ways to leverage things, both by playing nice; and by playing rough.

That said, I think we're wandering a bit from the topic at hand.

The point in this context was only that the City needs more revenue; some of which it can and ought to generate itself; it needs to spend more wisely, (nix IMIT); but it also needs more revenue and/or 'tools' from the Province as well.

If the province won't cooperate when asked nicely, then there are other ways to go about things.
 
I think the Gardiner should be uploaded by the province. Like how is this being re built without sound walls, or strategic improvements to traffic traffic flow. Also why are the newly installed lights not led. Im not a fan the the MTO but I feel they would actually made improvements and bring the gardiner to modern standards.
 
As much as I would prefer the expressway be removed, at least financially speaking it would be amazing to make it a provincial responsibility. We could use that money to build Toronto BRT lines.
 
LemonCondo said:
As much as I would prefer the expressway be removed, at least financially speaking it would be amazing to make it a provincial responsibility. We could use that money to build Toronto BRT lines.
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comically, the PCs had actually proposed to upload the highways under Hudak. They've been quiet on it since though.
 
dullturtle06 said:
I think the Gardiner should be uploaded by the province. Like how is this being re built without sound walls, or strategic improvements to traffic traffic flow. Also why are the newly installed lights not led. Im not a fan the the MTO but I feel they would actually made improvements and bring the gardiner to modern standards.
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Toronto did do an EA to make some geometric improvements about a decade ago - it's not clear if they intend on implementing them as a part of the rehabilitation though:

 
innsertnamehere said:
Toronto did do an EA to make some geometric improvements about a decade ago - it's not clear if they intend on implementing them as a part of the rehabilitation though:

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Hopefully they actually implement them, but im was thinking more of the Jarvis on ramp and how a lane randomly disappears heading westbound. I think they could either extend the on ramp to have a better meger lane or have that right lane exit onto yonge street prior to the on ramp.
 
evandyk said:
Tolls are the answer, but we all know how that ended up...
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The Liberals vetoed tolls on the Gardiner Expressway and Don Valley Parkway, to entice the 905 drivers (voters) who generally use those expressways. The City of Toronto should try it again, with the (Progressive) Conservatives. If that fails, try it again after the next provincial election in June 4, 2026 or earlier.
 
Rainforest said:
It didn't work once, does that mean won't ever work? Should the City pitch the DVP and Gardiner tolls again, citing the fiscal challenges?
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Just as @Northern Light suggested, the city should just close the highway citing an inability to pay for it. Either let the City toll it, hand them money to maintain it or take it off their hands, but short of indentfied source of money it should stay closed. Be sure to cite the equivalent property tax increase required to bring in the same revenue to help make the case.
 
max said:
Just as @Northern Light suggested, the city should just close the highway citing an inability to pay for it. Either let the City toll it, hand them money to maintain it or take it off their hands, but short of indentfied source of money it should stay closed. Be sure to cite the equivalent property tax increase required to bring in the same revenue to help make the case.
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Not sure about that. In principle, OK to close it temporarily if that leads to a provincial consent to toll it.

However, the province holds all the legislative power. They can legislate that the city keeps the highway open, without being able to toll it and without any money transfers from the province. Or, they can transfer the control to province while making the city pay for the upkeep. However silly that sounds from the logical standpoint, they can legislate that.

Bullying a bully is a good idea, sometimes. But, one should pre estimate which of the two bullies has more resources and more determination.
 
To those who keep saying that the City of Toronto should find ways to save money, closing the Gardiner Expressway and Don Valley Expressway are just that. Maintaining those highways so that the drivers from 905 can use them is an expense we cannot no longer afford.

No more single-occupant motor vehicles from the 905 using them for free. Maybe allow only 18-wheelers, actual commercial trucks, buses, and emergency vehicles to use them, toll-free.
 
I would think a mayor with 'strong powers' could propose, amongst a long list of other CIty initiatives to pay for itself, a set of tolling fee's geared to the upkeep and improvement of the the Gardiner/DVP combination. The tolls do not need to be punitive, unless we are geared to forcing people to adequate regional transit (which needs to exist first), in which case the tolls could be shared with the agencies providing that transit. I would be onboard with that completely. (and also to toll other GTA highways to supplement their upkeep and improvement but also to flow funds to regional transit.)

I'm not sure why you would not toll commercial vehicles as well. Why would they have special status?

We should be wary of traffic leaving these routes to use inner city streets to get to destinations. I am not sure what % or drivers that might be, whether its a valid point of consideration, nor that we should not toll just based on that consideration, but it would be worthwhile having some knowledge of the consequence to tolling.

As a former city dweller, who is now a 905er but works, lives, commutes, employes throughout the GTA, I often think that transit (in all its forms) should be regionally based. Forget the TTC, how about the GTATC, forget about fares stopping at municipal borders, and bus lines, subway lines, streetcar lines etc etc. Tax and toll throughout the GTA to support the various forms of transit that may not be all centered on Union Station, but are based on moving as many people as quickly as possible throughout this region in a seamless fashion.
 
Rainforest said:
Not sure about that. In principle, OK to close it temporarily if that leads to a provincial consent to toll it.

However, the province holds all the legislative power. They can legislate that the city keeps the highway open, without being able to toll it and without any money transfers from the province. Or, they can transfer the control to province while making the city pay for the upkeep. However silly that sounds from the logical standpoint, they can legislate that.

Bullying a bully is a good idea, sometimes. But, one should pre estimate which of the two bullies has more resources and more determination.
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I hear ya; but in this instance, what that amounts to is lie down, rollover and take it.

Can't support that.

The City has a lot of tools to make life very difficult for the province, and in practical terms the province can't win that fight indefinitely.

Sure, they could just dissolve the City, but they wouldn't. Expensive, impractical, non-starter. Sure they could just dissolve Council and take direct control of the City, that too is a 'no'; the province literally lacks the administrative capacity to take that on, on a near-term basis; besides that would make them accountable for every single thing the City does wrong, no provincial party wants to wear that.

Its quite right to say the effort should first be made with honey, rather than vinegar; its equally right to suggest some small slights/hiccups should probably be overlooked at the risk of creating a bigger problem. But we're at the point where we have ~12,000 people homeless and record food bank usage.

Toronto is already being kicked in the teeth. Time to kick-back, and aim a little lower.
 
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