[DSCToronto]

TDSB education director ousted by provincial supervisor, saying ‘fresh start’ needed

A memo, from provincial supervisor Rohit Gupta, says he and Education Minister Paul Calandra made the "difficult decision" and that Clayton La Touche "will be leaving the TDSB, effective immediately."

www.thestar.com

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

^That's was an easy decision. The difficult one would of been to have him stay...

 

[lenaitch]

CP and CN were born out of many railways that were funded or subsidized by the government.

It is true that both CP and many of the predecessor railways to CN were funded by the federal government with money and/or land grants - that's the way development railways were built in many countries. CN was created by the government to 'save' a bunch of railways that were going bankrupt after WW1. I suppose the government could buy them back - get out your chequebook. Maybe it could buy back Air Canada and hope for better domestic service and cheaper fares. I'm not sure I agree that the public money directed towards private industry with the goal of improving the economy makes the private industry forever beholden to public service.

Predatory against who? REITs?

Decent point. When it comes to home ownership, my brain goes to the traditional live-in principal residence. I'm not in favour of house/contract flipping. Part of the problem is the provincial land registry system doesn't talk to the CRA system. In recent years, the CRA has asked for a declaration of principle residency but I think that's it.

 

[urbanclient]

It is true that both CP and many of the predecessor railways to CN were funded by the federal government with money and/or land grants - that's the way development railways were built in many countries. CN was created by the government to 'save' a bunch of railways that were going bankrupt after WW1. I suppose the government could buy them back - get out your chequebook. Maybe it could buy back Air Canada and hope for better domestic service and cheaper fares. I'm not sure I agree that the public money directed towards private industry with the goal of improving the economy makes the private industry forever beholden to public service.

I never said it was feasible to re-nationalize or that nationalization would be necessarily net beneficial in the long term. Especially in the context of the current political and economic system. The case with Canada's airlines is complicated. How are our pilots and cabin crew paid so much less than in the US, and yet our airfares are so much higher? The fact that the US essentially subsidizes flying leading to less taxes and airport fees doesn't explain the whole disparity between our airfares. US airlines are just run more efficiently, more competently. Flight attendants in Canada effectively make less than most provinces' minimum wage. Our pilots are paid significantly less than their American counterparts, even before tax. And yet Air Canada has historically had lower operating margins than major US airlines *edit for accuracy; all despite having lower labour costs and a larger domestic market share (AC 43% vs. US majors <25%).

 

[Northern Light]

I never said it was feasible to re-nationalize or that nationalization would be necessarily net beneficial in the long term. Especially in the context of the current political and economic system. The case with Canada's airlines is complicated. How are our pilots and cabin crew paid so much less than in the US, and yet our airfares are so much higher? The fact that the US essentially subsidizes flying leading to less taxes and airport fees doesn't explain the whole disparity between our airfares. US airlines are just run more efficiently, more competently. Flight attendants in Canada effectively make less than most provinces' minimum wage. Our pilots are paid significantly less than their American counterparts, even before tax. Air Canada manages to have lower profit margins than all major US airlines; all despite having lower labour costs and a larger domestic market share (AC 43% vs. US majors <25%).

You have lots of interesting ideas, on lots of subjects, that are worthy of discussion, but they keep popping up in completely unrelated threads.

Doug Ford/Provincial Politics has little or nothing to do with federally regulated railways in Canada or with the Canadian Aviation industry.

The correct thread for the rail discussion is here:

General railway discussions

Which then begs the question, with all of our rail projects going on,why are we not sourcing our rails from Canada? Or are we? My understanding is we are not. Because there hasn't been a Canadian mill that has rolled rail since the 1980s. Dan

urbantoronto.ca

Discussion on the Aviation Industry goes here:

Canadian airline industry (general discussion)

Air Canada has confirmed its first scheduled route, Montréal to Palma de Mallorca, for the new Airbus A321xlr planes it should start using in 2026...

urbantoronto.ca

Tangents happen, I'm guilty of them too; but please try to contain them, or shift them to the appropriate thread.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

^...I think it was Bill the lenaitch Cat that started this thread down this tangent and not urbanclient-san. However and that said, perhaps it would serve us better to remind us all here about staying on topic, and not center out just one person...as we're all guilty here as charged here.

 

[urbanclient]

^...I think it was Bill the lenaitch Cat that started this thread down this tangent and not urbanclient-san. However and that said, perhaps it would serve us better to remind us all here about staying on topic, and not center out just one person...as we're all guilty here as charged here.

Circling back to Doug Ford and how it relates to SOEs, is there any chance that Ontario Hydro gets re-nationalized / re-provincialized? I assume not with a PC government at the helm. The Liberals of Ontario had their part in privatizing it too, so should we have any hope? Get ready for more higher than inflation cost increases for seemingly no good reason. Can't say I'm surprised when we privatize the natural monopoly in electricity generation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1o9cjck/november_1st_hydro_rate_increase_over_13

 

[lenaitch]

Circling back to Doug Ford and how it relates to SOEs, is there any chance that Ontario Hydro gets re-nationalized / re-provincialized? I assume not with a PC government at the helm. The Liberals of Ontario had their part in privatizing it too, so should we have any hope? Get ready for more higher than inflation cost increases for seemingly no good reason. Can't say I'm surprised when we privatize the natural monopoly in electricity generation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/1o9cjck/november_1st_hydro_rate_increase_over_13

Ontario Hydro hasn't existed since 1998 but with an estimated market cap of about $31.8 Bn, Hydro One would be a little pricy for a government of any colour.

 

[Northern Light]

Ontario Hydro hasn't existed since 1998 but with an estimated market cap of about $31.8 Bn, Hydro One would be a little pricy for a government of any colour.

Forgetting the merits.........

The Province of Ontario is currently the 47% owner of Hydro One, and its share value is included in the above.

So the outstanding equity is worth 16.85B

But in any re-aqusition, If this were done with an eye to reforming Ontario Hydro, you could use the assets of Ontario Power Generation.

This only works if you intend to retain a public float, but that is plausible with or without a dual-class share structure. Many of Canada's biggest private firms separate out voting control from the wider class of shares.

So if the object were simply public control, as opposed to immediate 100% ownership........I don't think its hard to imagine how to do this or find the money.

The important question though is 'why''? That's not a critique or an endorsement, simply, one needs to know the purpose to evaluate any policy merit (or lack thereof)

OPG doesn't have a public valuation. There have been different estimates in recent years based on available data and reported net income. At the low end, its worth as little as 6B, but that seems very low.

At the high end, its ~30B.

Looking at the broad picture, if I were considering investing in it, subject to a host of ifs and buts, I would peg it at close to an 18B value if given a market float.

So it would be the junior partner in a re-merged Ontario Hydro, but it could realistically result in a zero cash deal in which the Province had a 66% controlling interest.

Add some cash, and you can push that number higher at moderate cost.

Whether any of that is a good idea is a different question entirely.

 

[lenaitch]

Forgetting the merits.........

The Province of Ontario is currently the 47% owner of Hydro One, and its share value is included in the above.

So the outstanding equity is worth 16.85B

But in any re-aqusition, If this were done with an eye to reforming Ontario Hydro, you could use the assets of Ontario Power Generation.

This only works if you intend to retain a public float, but that is plausible with or without a dual-class share structure. Many of Canada's biggest private firms separate out voting control from the wider class of shares.

So if the object were simply public control, as opposed to immediate 100% ownership........I don't think its hard to imagine how to do this or find the money.

The important question though is 'why''? That's not a critique or an endorsement, simply, one needs to know the purpose to evaluate any policy merit (or lack thereof)

OPG doesn't have a public valuation. There have been different estimates in recent years based on available data and reported net income. At the low end, its worth as little as 6B, but that seems very low.

At the high end, its ~30B.

Looking at the broad picture, if I were considering investing in it, subject to a host of ifs and buts, I would peg it at close to an 18B value if given a market float.

So it would be the junior partner in a re-merged Ontario Hydro, but it could realistically result in a zero cash deal in which the Province had a 66% controlling interest.

Add some cash, and you can push that number higher at moderate cost.

Whether any of that is a good idea is a different question entirely.

Either way, I don't see a clear path to cheaper utility rates which was part of the post posed. The Ontario government already subsidizes consumers to the tune of about $7Bn/yr.

 

[Northern Light]

Either way, I don't see a clear path to cheaper utility rates which was part of the post posed. The Ontario government already subsidizes consumers to the tune of about $7Bn/yr.

I broadly agree. The simple act of public control doesn't unto itself achieve any savings.

A re-merger would likely net some modest savings (one payroll dept etc.), but nothing of note on your bill. If the new merged utility were directed to operate as a non-profit, that would be a partial-give back, but that only works if you have full government ownership and even then, based on the reported margins, the savings would likely be less than the current rate subsidies. (and you have a cost incurred by the treasury of foregoing any dividends to the government)

I think the one substantial reduction in rates available would be, above and beyond the above, to close the Ontario power market fully. (ie. no spot price on power, no Global Adjustment) and to end sub-metering completely as well.

That would trigger upset by the submeterers and others who would expect at least some compensation, and by some environmental groups for stifling conservation efforts.

Though, my overall read is that submetering and time of day pricing have produced very little benefit, and much administrative cost and profit-taking by middle men.

For all of that............such an exercise would cost many billions and I expect the benefit would be comparatively modest. Maybe, if we're lucky, covering the cost of current subsidies such that we save some 'general revenues', but not likely lower bills much, if at all.