[T3G]

Crazy scene at the LCBO at King and Yonge. The staff are frantically removing the US products from the shelves and the manager is yelling out at the customers “if it's still on the shelf you can still buy it, but the second we remove it, it's no longer for sale here anymore.“ Definitely looked like some restaurant buyers were snapping up what they could still get. One guy had ten bottles of J. Lohr right before they were about to get to that section.

I don't know anything about the LCBO's business practices, but are US products consignment goods or are they paid for in advance? If it's the latter, it's hard to imagine what getting rid of them achieves, as they've been paid for already.

 

[Thinker]

I don't know anything about the LCBO's business practices, but are US products consignment goods or are they paid for in advance? If it's the latter, it's hard to imagine what getting rid of them achieves, as they've been paid for already.

That’s not the point it’s about protesting and buy Canadian, I am not sure what arrangements the LCBO has with their suppliers, but I believe it’s on some sort of consignment.

 

[Jonny5]

I don't know anything about the LCBO's business practices, but are US products consignment goods or are they paid for in advance? If it's the latter, it's hard to imagine what getting rid of them achieves, as they've been paid for already.

They would in general hold their value once moved back to storage, but also since they are not sold anymore there is no reason to order any more product to replace what is sold because nothing is sold.

 

[T3G]

That’s not the point it’s about protesting and buy Canadian

Well, that's why I asked about what the purchasing agreement was, because that changes the equation rather fundamentally. If the product is not yet paid for, then it makes sense to pull it - if it's been paid for in full, then it's just throwing away usable product to achieve nothing.

 

[evandyk]

But they're not throwing it away. They're either returning it to the supplier if they have the right, or storing it. If it comes to it, they could probably also sell it on to other purchasers who are not boycotting the US, thus depriving US producers not only of sales to Ontario, but sales to other places as well.

 

[picard102]

They don't pay for it until it's sold. They can return it at and the vendor pays for the shipping.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If the goal is to get information out quickly and widely, why would any government agency, or private business for that matter, shift to a platform with such a small 'market share' that defeats the initial goals? If there are any small business owners on here that rely on social media, have you moved off the 'mainstream platforms' out of principle?

I share the concern with Tic Tok, quite frankly any China-based business, because of government interference. However, I'm not sure of the practical alternatives to the like of FB or X because they are owned by fans of El Duce.

Emergency services are government departments that use products and services in accordance with their parent governments' policies. Maybe we will see an attempt to move them off US-based network platforms such as Microsoft as well, or start buying European vehicles.

You are viewing government policy solely through the lens of public emergency announcement; I am looking at it as a broader information space issue, and what I am saying is high time that it aligns with our new strategic reality.

AoD

 

[evandyk]

They don't pay for it until it's sold. They can return it at and the vendor pays for the shipping.

If the standard terms of service posted above by lenaitch are the ones that the vendors are signing, the LCBO pays within 60 days of delivery of the product. The LCBO has a limited right to return the product if it's "unsatisfactory", which would seem to be triggered if Ford simply passes a law saying you can't sell American booze in Ontario.

Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

This is correct. The LCBO ban affects distribution to other stores. If they're not available at LCBO they're not available at convenience stores, at least AFAIK. This is correct. American products are being removed from the catalogue for wholesale. I may be teetotal, but given that beer...

urbantoronto.ca

 

[goreckm]

If the goal is to get information out quickly and widely, why would any government agency, or private business for that matter, shift to a platform with such a small 'market share' that defeats the initial goals? If there are any small business owners on here that rely on social media, have you moved off the 'mainstream platforms' out of principle?

I share the concern with Tic Tok, quite frankly any China-based business, because of government interference. However, I'm not sure of the practical alternatives to the like of FB or X because they are owned by fans of El Duce.

Emergency services are government departments that use products and services in accordance with their parent governments' policies. Maybe we will see an attempt to move them off US-based network platforms such as Microsoft as well, or start buying European vehicles.

Government shouldn't be creating its own platform, but the goal should be to encourage people off the services by favouring an alternative which is at least less entrenched with the American oligarchs. We could easily create laws that force ISPs to have a warning message at the top of any Twitter/Facebook page/app which warns that information there is prone to be manipulated by foreign actors, and to verify any information with an official source, for example.

Also, as a Canadian, I think at this particular point, Twitter and Facebook usage is probably much more problematic than TikTok. I can easily see the US government having access to those social media platforms for interference in our business. There are few things more dangerous to our survival as a country than letting Americans dictate our information.

And yes , government departments should move off American platforms like Windows / MacOs and buy non-American vehicles. I thought we're all on the same page with the trade war. Anything that has an alternative to American products, even if its temporarily more expensive or annoying, should be the goal.

 

[lenaitch]

You are viewing government policy solely through the lens of public emergency announcement; I am looking at it as a broader information space issue, and what I am saying is high time that it aligns with our new strategic reality.

AoD

As a strategic goal, sure, but that takes time to develop. A few months ago, none of this was seen as an issue.

It is similar to the arguments that we should wean ourselves from the US markets, particularly in terms of energy export. Great. If every government restriction and regulation were dropped tomorrow, we'd still be at least a decade, and probably longer, building a east coast pipeline or LNG facility.

Government shouldn't be creating its own platform, but the goal should be to encourage people off the services by favouring an alternative which is at least less entrenched with the American oligarchs. We could easily create laws that force ISPs to have a warning message at the top of any Twitter/Facebook page/app which warns that information there is prone to be manipulated by foreign actors, and to verify any information with an official source, for example.

Also, as a Canadian, I think at this particular point, Twitter and Facebook usage is probably much more problematic than TikTok. I can easily see the US government having access to those social media platforms for interference in our business. There are few things more dangerous to our survival as a country than letting Americans dictate our information.

And yes , government departments should move off American platforms like Windows / MacOs and buy non-American vehicles. I thought we're all on the same page with the trade war. Anything that has an alternative to American products, even if its temporarily more expensive or annoying, should be the goal.

And if you know the secret sauce how to get ~32 Mn FB users to switch - primarily to access government sources, I'm sure they would be interested. A couple of posts up somebody mentioned a couple of platforms I had never heard of before, and I suspect I'm not alone. The populous is not as tech-savvy as many people think. People get on to social media because their friends do, businesses do, and it might be possible to move people off them - over time - if they se the benefit. Moving to a platform that you've never heard of and has minimal users doesn't sound encouraging.

Seeing as just about every commercial software application is made to be compatible with Windows or Mac, I'm not sure how practical that is.

I suppose if a European vehicle manufacturer produced a platform that met Canadian or Ontario emergency services standards, was competitively priced and had a dealer/service network, they might be considered. IDK.

It's not that easy to completely divorce yourself from the largest economy in the world.

 

[Sunnyside]

It's not that easy to completely divorce yourself from the largest economy in the world.

And that is exactly the point and problem of these tariffs. No nation would do well in this scenario, yet we are uniquely intertwined to an unparalleled degree that precedes both nations themselves. It is for that reason that any countermeasures can only be political. The economy is simply in the sh*tter no matter what until these are reversed. The whole point is seemingly to show that there is no alternative but to play ball... We can acknowledge this without giving any air to '51st state' talk, but I am genuinely concerned with what will be sliding across the negotiation table. It's too early to tell if we have any meaningful leverage.

We need to forget the alternatives for Facebook and whatever other digital infrastructure- seriously. This affects way more on the ground than the internet... which the US created, and exists well beyond any single nation state today-- should we just go dark to own the Americans? Cmon everyone, we can use Microsoft for God's sake. Imagine trying to manage this crisis with entirely new systems!

Way more important is what's going to happen to the very necessary natural resources, fuels, foods, and machinery that came without a second thought before. The actual bread and butter of the economy that we didn't even realize mattered till they were gone... trucks, trains, boats and planes full of American goods. A boycott can only be effective on things we either don't need, can produce ourselves, or import from elsewhere. I suspect there's a lot that does fit that bill, like alcohol- but a lot more that does not...

 

[afransen]

A couple of posts up somebody mentioned a couple of platforms I had never heard of before, and I suspect I'm not alone.

Bluesky is the lead contender in the race to fill the gap left by Twitter.

It has 32m users, which is about a tripling since the November election. X-Twitter has 600m. So Bluesky is not that far from having some critical mass to allow people to exit X. A lot of people who I follow on non-Twitter platforms have moved to Bluesky. They still post to Twitter, but only engage on Bluesky.

I think governments can help contribute to the retaliatory actions by harming X, namely by steering users to other platforms. Even say by posting to X with a delay of even an hour or two as a bare minimum. If Canada can get a meaningful amount of Canadians to use an alternative social media platform it gives us more resiliency to future American hostility.

https://www.fastcompany.com/91230935/the-website-tracks-how-fast-bluesky-is-growing-in-near-real-time

 

[afransen]

A boycott can only be effective on things we either don't need, can produce ourselves, or import from elsewhere. I suspect there's a lot that does fit that bill, like alcohol- but a lot more that does not...

No one is suggesting banning all US imports. Canada is only engaging in targeted tariffs with political impact or that are more substitutable or discretionary.

 

[goreckm]

And that is exactly the point and problem of these tariffs. No nation would do well in this scenario, yet we are uniquely intertwined to an unparalleled degree that precedes both nations themselves. It is for that reason that any countermeasures can only be political. The economy is simply in the sh*tter no matter what until these are reversed. The whole point is seemingly to show that there is no alternative but to play ball... We can acknowledge this without giving any air to '51st state' talk, but I am genuinely concerned with what will be sliding across the negotiation table. It's too early to tell if we have any meaningful leverage.

We need to forget the alternatives for Facebook and whatever other digital infrastructure- seriously. This affects way more on the ground than the internet... which the US created, and exists well beyond any single nation state today-- should we just go dark to own the Americans? Cmon everyone, we can use Microsoft for God's sake. Imagine trying to manage this crisis with entirely new systems!

Way more important is what's going to happen to the very necessary natural resources, fuels, foods, and machinery that came without a second thought before. The actual bread and butter of the economy that we didn't even realize mattered till they were gone... trucks, trains, boats and planes full of American goods. A boycott can only be effective on things we either don't need, can produce ourselves, or import from elsewhere. I suspect there's a lot that does fit that bill, like alcohol- but a lot more that does not...

So, I'm trying to say this as politely as I can, but, have you been living under a rock the last 30 years? Software is actually the most important thing from a national security context (see this article re: warship software), is probably the biggest part of the trade defecit for us (and the rest of the world) when it comes to spending money on American services and is what's propping up Trump and his cronies. Finding or developing alternatives there will pay for itself many times over. We can start with ensuring those services store all Canadian data in Canada, and open up their algorithms for our government to analyze, impose requirements for not allowing obvious fake news, and if they don't comply, cut them off. People lived without Facebook and Twitter for a long time, and can survive without them again. For people that can't, maybe they need to move south of the border, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

As for physical goods, yeah, they're important, and we need to be strategic, but important for us to diversify where we can. This trade war, or at the very least, trade uncertainty won't go away after 4 years, so these investments will pay off eventually. Everyone that thinks we're going back to normal are delusional. The America of old isn't coming back. Winning the trade war means a permanent restructuring of our economy away from so much trade with the Americans, without entering a depression. Losing means we're going to be more of a vassal state than we already were.

 

[lenaitch]

Bluesky is the lead contender in the race to fill the gap left by Twitter.

It has 32m users, which is about a tripling since the November election. X-Twitter has 600m. So Bluesky is not that far from having some critical mass to allow people to exit X. A lot of people who I follow on non-Twitter platforms have moved to Bluesky. They still post to Twitter, but only engage on Bluesky.

I think governments can help contribute to the retaliatory actions by harming X, namely by steering users to other platforms. Even say by posting to X with a delay of even an hour or two as a bare minimum. If Canada can get a meaningful amount of Canadians to use an alternative social media platform it gives us more resiliency to future American hostility.

https://www.fastcompany.com/91230935/the-website-tracks-how-fast-bluesky-is-growing-in-near-real-time

Fair enough and perhaps Bluesky is an emerging alternative, but it's still US-based. It may not be linked to the current regime administration but it is always one buy-out or Board change away from it.

We can start with ensuring those services store all Canadian data in Canada, and open up their algorithms for our government to analyze, impose requirements for not allowing obvious fake news, and if they don't comply, cut them off.

For data critical to national security, I can get on board with having the data stored domestically. However, outside of that parameter, that proposed level of state surveillance is something I doubt most Canadians would find acceptable (and our Charter would have trouble with). "Fake news", in and of itself, isn't a national security concern. People have always been free to say, and believe, all sorts of stupid stuff.