[lenaitch]

I took a drive from Englehart to North bay today to see the progress of the work done to prepare for the return of the Northlander.

I asked a question of a train crew.
Internally, the word is….

May.

That's what I'm hearing as well, but they fully expect 'slippage', because that's what happens in these things. The first trainset is expect in either December or January with the other two about a month apart each. After that, the usual commissioning, acceptance, hiring, familiarization, training, etc. The Timmins station will not be ready.

 

[dowlingm]

The only reason the Sudbury-White River service still exists (and I'm surprised it does) is under its regional/remote mandate when Canadian was switched to CN. I'm not even sure how valid that is anymore since I think most if not all former rail-served communities (like Biscotasing) now have road access of some quality. The enroute population is vanishingly small, with the two 'main' communities of White River and Chapleau - both on highways - total under 3000. It does serve some lodges and back country trippers. People in White River have virtually no natural connection to services in Sudbury, let alone take 8+ hours to do it, unless they have a screaming urge to go to a Costco.

I suspect it's existence, like the north Quebec service, is likely due to the unacceptable political capital it would expend to cancel it.

Perhaps it would be fairer to say that there would/should be resistance to cancelling one if the other wasn't too, and the other isn't going.

I just reflexively resist the notion that such services are frozen in amber like the Constitution because it's too hard to choose to improve them or discard them. It's not like CPKC are going to anything other than wave goodbye to have the inconvenience of 185/186 removed. Similarly if 185/186 is stopped without replacement, presumably the feds simply zero that obligation as when they were subsidizing the old Northlander. Meanwhile Ontario is dropping huge sums on new equipment for Northlander for a route which unquestionably has road access. As I have complained previously, there is a frustration in being unable to objectively figure out what is worth keeping/adding/discarding.

As for White River-Sudbury I would see not as a standalone as it basically is now, and having to stand or fall on that basis, but as part of Toronto-Sudbury-Thunder Bay transportation options. Unfortunately it seems to be similarly quick at present to get an ONTC bus White River-Sault-Sudbury (617km) as the VIA train (268 rail miles, 431 km). Unless there is some way to improve that, it's unlikely to be offered in route planning systems.

As for the new Northlander, as I have noted previously there is an obvious option for ONTC to take to accelerate elements of the rail vehicle side - rent an XS-J, split them, and use them to familiarize staff north of Toronto and validate platform construction. That doesn't help Timmins but at least there can be nothing left to do but Timmins in terms of the final go-date, understanding that starting the service as Cochrane terminating only would be politically unacceptable.

 

[micheal_can]

The only reason the Sudbury-White River service still exists (and I'm surprised it does) is under its regional/remote mandate when Canadian was switched to CN. I'm not even sure how valid that is anymore since I think most if not all former rail-served communities (like Biscotasing) now have road access of some quality. The enroute population is vanishingly small, with the two 'main' communities of White River and Chapleau - both on highways - total under 3000. It does serve some lodges and back country trippers. People in White River have virtually no natural connection to services in Sudbury, let alone take 8+ hours to do it, unless they have a screaming urge to go to a Costco.

I suspect it's existence, like the north Quebec service, is likely due to the unacceptable political capital it would expend to cancel it.

When I rode it last fall, there were several people going to Sudbury for those types or reasons. SSM is about 4 hours from it.

It is intermodal in the sense that both ONR bus and rail will use it. City transit might have serviced it but I'm not sure. City transit does service the Northgate Mall which has tunnel access to the station.

There is a city transit bus that goes to it. Within minutes of taking the pictures, a bus went by.

That's what I'm hearing as well, but they fully expect 'slippage', because that's what happens in these things. The first trainset is expect in either December or January with the other two about a month apart each. After that, the usual commissioning, acceptance, hiring, familiarization, training, etc. The Timmins station will not be ready.

Oh, I know. I am not planning anything, yet. But,I am looking forward to this happening.

 

[micheal_can]

Perhaps it would be fairer to say that there would/should be resistance to cancelling one if the other wasn't too, and the other isn't going.

I just reflexively resist the notion that such services are frozen in amber like the Constitution because it's too hard to choose to improve them or discard them. It's not like CPKC are going to anything other than wave goodbye to have the inconvenience of 185/186 removed. Similarly if 185/186 is stopped without replacement, presumably the feds simply zero that obligation as when they were subsidizing the old Northlander. Meanwhile Ontario is dropping huge sums on new equipment for Northlander for a route which unquestionably has road access. As I have complained previously, there is a frustration in being unable to objectively figure out what is worth keeping/adding/discarding.

As for White River-Sudbury I would see not as a standalone as it basically is now, and having to stand or fall on that basis, but as part of Toronto-Sudbury-Thunder Bay transportation options. Unfortunately it seems to be similarly quick at present to get an ONTC bus White River-Sault-Sudbury (617km) as the VIA train (268 rail miles, 431 km). Unless there is some way to improve that, it's unlikely to be offered in route planning systems.

Just the section, no, not much to improve it. But it could be extended if there was political will and funding, and the rolling stock for it. That would then bring an excuse to argue for an intermodal station in Sudbury.

As for the new Northlander, as I have noted previously there is an obvious option for ONTC to take to accelerate elements of the rail vehicle side - rent an XS-J, split them, and use them to familiarize staff north of Toronto and validate platform construction. That doesn't help Timmins but at least there can be nothing left to do but Timmins in terms of the final go-date, understanding that starting the service as Cochrane terminating only would be politically unacceptable.

Even if the Timmins station is not complete, no reason they cannot do that.

 

[lenaitch]

There is a city transit bus that goes to it. Within minutes of taking the pictures, a bus went by.

Curious. Their system transit map shows no route going to the ONR station. Two routes go along Seymour St, which is nearby and several go to the Northgate Mall across the tracks.

the feds simply zero that obligation as when they were subsidizing the old Northlander.

I wasn't aware that the federal government subsidized the Northlander.

As for the new Northlander, as I have noted previously there is an obvious option for ONTC to take to accelerate elements of the rail vehicle side - rent an XS-J, split them, and use them to familiarize staff north of Toronto and validate platform construction. That doesn't help Timmins but at least there can be nothing left to do but Timmins in terms of the final go-date, understanding that starting the service as Cochrane terminating only would be politically unacceptable.

I suppose they could, so long as VIA was willing to rent them out and the province was willing to pay for it.

There are a lot of related projects ongoing, including rail welding, curve realignment/re-elevation and crossing protection. There's really no much to do regarding platforms. Those that are not paved will be paved, North Bay is being repaired. Kiosk installation is underway. Much of the required staff hasn't even been hired yet. I'm hearing around 80 in all roles. Operating crews will have to become familiar with the whole route from Toronto north.

Project timelines and integration exist for a reason, and I'm not hearing any noise around here about wanting things to move faster. People are simply happy they are moving.

 

[dowlingm]

I wasn't aware that the federal government subsidized the Northlander.

$2.5m in 2011. Weirdly I remembered it being more but can’t find a cite so will have to settle for this. I believe it started when VIA’s Northland train was terminated.

Government Expenditures and Revenues from Transportation

tc.canada.ca

 

[lenaitch]

$2.5m in 2011. Weirdly I remembered it being more but can’t find a cite so will have to settle for this. I believe it started when VIA’s Northland train was terminated.

Government Expenditures and Revenues from Transportation

tc.canada.ca

I believe, but stand to be corrected, that the federal money is for the operation of the Polar Bear Express remote service. A federal (Transport Canada) 'contribution' show on ONTC's 2023-4 annual report but I couldn't find any indication of its terms other than "rail operations".

I believe this was the same funding scheme that TC cancelled for the CN Algoma SSM-Hearst passenger service, citing that it no longer qualified, resulting in CN cancelling the service.

 

[micheal_can]

Curious. Their system transit map shows no route going to the ONR station. Two routes go along Seymour St, which is nearby and several go to the Northgate Mall across the tracks.

The map doesn't show it going in, but the schedule does.
8 Eastview-Algonquin

8 Eastview-Algonquin | City of North Bay

8 Eastview-Algonquin

northbay.ca

I suppose they could, so long as VIA was willing to rent them out and the province was willing to pay for it.

There are a lot of related projects ongoing, including rail welding, curve realignment/re-elevation and crossing protection. There's really no much to do regarding platforms. Those that are not paved will be paved, North Bay is being repaired. Kiosk installation is underway. Much of the required staff hasn't even been hired yet. I'm hearing around 80 in all roles. Operating crews will have to become familiar with the whole route from Toronto north.

Project timelines and integration exist for a reason, and I'm not hearing any noise around here about wanting things to move faster. People are simply happy they are moving.

My expectation is that hiring and training will happen once the first train arrives. So, we could see it running for months before it enters revenue service.

 

[dowlingm]

I believe, but stand to be corrected, that the federal money is for the operation of the Polar Bear Express remote service. A federal (Transport Canada) 'contribution' show on ONTC's 2023-4 annual report but I couldn't find any indication of its terms other than "rail operations".

I believe this was the same funding scheme that TC cancelled for the CN Algoma SSM-Hearst passenger service, citing that it no longer qualified, resulting in CN cancelling the service.

The subsidy was for Northlander and was prorated/terminated in the financial year it ended. see PDF page 34 / document page 32

https://www.ontarionorthland.ca/sites/default/files/corporate-document-files/12-13_ar_english.pdf

Mind you, it is interesting that the feds don’t contribute to PBX, but presumably didn’t feel they had to as VIA never operated it?

 

[lenaitch]

The subsidy was for Northlander and was prorated/terminated in the financial year it ended. see PDF page 34 / document page 32

https://www.ontarionorthland.ca/sites/default/files/corporate-document-files/12-13_ar_english.pdf

Mind you, it is interesting that the feds don’t contribute to PBX, but presumably didn’t feel they had to as VIA never operated it?

It is curious then, that a federal TC 'contribution' still shows in the 2023-4 ONTC annual report when Northlander hasn't operated for a decade. I didn't check other reports from other years.

 

[dowlingm]

It is curious then, that a federal TC 'contribution' still shows in the 2023-4 ONTC annual report when Northlander hasn't operated for a decade. I didn't check other reports from other years.

I am on my phone at the moment but I believe that was a capital grant, not operating. Something like 350K maybe?

 

[lenaitch]

I am on my phone at the moment but I believe that was a capital grant, not operating. Something like 350K maybe?

In 2022-2023, yes ($645K).

However, in 2023-2024 then was federal money for both capital and operating. Similar in 2021-2022; federal capital and operating money.

 

[micheal_can]

In 2022-2023, yes ($645K).

View attachment 687438

However, in 2023-2024 then was federal money for both capital and operating. Similar in 2021-2022; federal capital and operating money.

View attachment 687439

Could this be for the costs to get the Northlander back operating?

 

[dowlingm]

ONR did get some crossing grant money but it’s not easy to pin down which crossings were assisted in which years

Infrastructure, Technology and Research Projects

Funding for approved projects under the Rail Safety Improvement Program.

tc.canada.ca

 

[lenaitch]

Could this be for the costs to get the Northlander back operating?

I doubt the feds would channel funds from Transport Canada directly to a provincial agency. Besides, if they did, they would crow about it and I've seen northing about federal funding.

It could be something as simple as federal money to backstop FN people from Moose Factory or beyond up the coast to travel for medical or other approved reasons or, as noted, simply money doled out to railways for certain initiatives. I really don't know.