[Brighter Hell]

Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Hey, reread your own original statement. It's more than a little convoluted. Consider what I said ridiculous all you want to - if you think it worthy or ridicule. But going beyond your contempt, since a PR system could be my voting and representational system, too, I think I and everyone else can raise all the criticisms and defintional problems we like. You don't just do things because other people do them, you have to have good reasons for doing so. You appear to bridle at the very idea of asking critical questions about moving into the process. Too bad.

Once again you seem to have read something I didn't write. Nowhere did I say that we should adopt PR just because other countries have done it. That would be just as ridiculous as dismissing the experience of existing PR governments just because they're in other countries. I'm saying PR systems around the world should be closely studied (as they have been) because they've solved the main problem people people have with FPTP: that the popular vote isn't reflected in the distribution of seats. And their governments are stable.

I am not ignoring them at all. As for the "flimsy" pretext, until we have selected one such system, or created one of our own, a PR system does not exist here, so we don't know what the impacts are, major, minor, or out of the ballpark, do we? If you want to engage in speculation, knock yourself out. Just don't call it "proof" for this electoral environment. As for your judgement concerning my argument, believe it or not, I was not looking to satisfy you.

I still think that's an extremely weak argument. You asked me to rephrase the point a few posts back, so I will. Canada's provinces are very diverse and differ in how they elect legislatures. A PR government working well in BC or Quebec wouldn't be "proof" that it would work in Ontario any more than PR working well in New Zealand. In fact, the system that was proposed in BC was a single transferable vote system, not mixed member PR like in New Zealand and proposed for Ontario. The New Zealand system is actually more relevant to study than the one proposed in BC.

The fact that PR doesn't exist in Canada yet is essentially meaningless.

 

[afransen TO]

Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

I agree. Frankly, arguing that we can't reasonably discuss the impact of PR in Ontario because no jurisdiction in Canada uses it is intellectually bankrupt. I don't mean this as an insult to you bizorky, just the argument. You seem to be grasping as straws to avoid losing ground.

 

[bizorky]

Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

Once again you seem to have read something I didn't write. Nowhere did I say that we should adopt PR just because other countries have done it. That would be just as ridiculous as dismissing the experience of existing PR governments just because they're in other countries. I'm saying PR systems around the world should be closely studied (as they have been) because they've solved the main problem people people have with FPTP: that the popular vote isn't reflected in the distribution of seats. And their governments are stable.

Your insistence that one look at other models seems to transmit this kind of message. Be that as it may, I am not doubting your interest in pursuing a PR system. As I've noted, I think it is also worth pursuing a PR structure, regardless of my own concerns and arguments about potential outcomes. All I am saying is that there is no way to predict particular effects of that system, nor is there any way to know as of yet whether it will increase voter participation or increase satisfaction in government. You may believe that such an answer is available; I'm going to take it with a very big grain of salt.

I still think that's an extremely weak argument. You asked me to rephrase the point a few posts back, so I will. Canada's provinces are very diverse and differ in how they elect legislatures. A PR government working well in BC or Quebec wouldn't be "proof" that it would work in Ontario any more than PR working well in New Zealand. In fact, the system that was proposed in BC was a single transferable vote system, not mixed member PR like in New Zealand and proposed for Ontario. The New Zealand system is actually more relevant to study than the one proposed in BC.

As to my argument, your entitled to your opinion. As I stated earlier, we could possibly end up with a number of PR systems established in different provinces, some of which could net all kinds of unexpected political happenings. I don't really see what is so radical about this statement. Specific outcomes of local occurances can only be known when one actually acquires the measures of those outcomes. Anyway, thanks for rephrasing.

Frankly, arguing that we can't reasonably discuss the impact of PR in Ontario because no jurisdiction in Canada uses it is intellectually bankrupt. I don't mean this as an insult to you bizorky, just the argument. You seem to be grasping as straws to avoid losing ground.

Losing ground? I wasn't aware this was a race of some sort. You can discuss what the potential outcomes could be all you want, but the operative word here is still "potential," isn't it? Since no such system is in place in Canada, all conversation revolves around potentials. So if I counter a few assertions made here with a few of my own, there is hardly anything bankrupt about it. And of course I know your not trying to insult me, that's why you chose your words so carefully.

 

[cacruden]

Re: Ontario Citizens Assembly comes up with a voting system.

As I said before, I am not for a PR system -- but I do believe that we should change the voting system to a preferential based system (Instant run-off).

i.e. first choice
second choice (if first is knocked off the ballot)
third choice (if both first and second are knocked off the ballot).