B
bizorky
Guest
I never schedule my Via trips to hit Ottawa (or Toronto for that matter) at 17:00 for exactly the reasosn you have outlined. Yeah, the 95 is overstuffed at rush hour.
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L
lazyandrandom
Guest
My thoughts on the O-Train:
Existing Line:
It's garbage. It doesn't go anywhere at all. It connects to the Transitway near downtown, stops at Carling (there's nothing there anyway), stops at Carleton University (there's already three buse routes that go to Carleton), stops at Confederation (nothing there just like Carling) and stops at Greenboro (which the 97 and other bus routes stop there anyway).
This was a waste of money because when I went on it a few times almost all of the seats were empty.
This was just a poor excuse to have light rail in Ottawa using the exisiting rail lines.:rolleyes
North South Line Extension:
The O-Train starting from Barhaven (where there are no traffic problems) and finishing at Ottawa U is a ridiculous idea.
I know OC Transpo is trying to encourage ridership, but existing traffic problems should be addressed first before ridership problems.
The current plan doesn't even say about connecting to MacDonald Airport. I doubt tourists would want to take the packed 97.
I don't understand this part: sharing the Transitway with buses. It's either one or the other. What's the point in having the O-Train when the buses can go farther? Solution: Put it underground, especially at Alberta and Slater. If it's at street level, the train will go at the slow speed like the buses and cars during peak hours. I don't see any point in that. And I don't think any city has a train riding on the streets. Streetcars would be a better and cheaper solution too, but since the O-Train already exists, Ottawa wants to keep using it I suppose.
In fantasy land, the whole transitway should be replaced by the O-Train on the ground level and should go underground where necessary like when streets appear. This will increase ridership and traffic flow (especially with the speed of the train and train capacity).
Existing Line:
It's garbage. It doesn't go anywhere at all. It connects to the Transitway near downtown, stops at Carling (there's nothing there anyway), stops at Carleton University (there's already three buse routes that go to Carleton), stops at Confederation (nothing there just like Carling) and stops at Greenboro (which the 97 and other bus routes stop there anyway).
This was a waste of money because when I went on it a few times almost all of the seats were empty.
This was just a poor excuse to have light rail in Ottawa using the exisiting rail lines.:rolleyes
North South Line Extension:
The O-Train starting from Barhaven (where there are no traffic problems) and finishing at Ottawa U is a ridiculous idea.
I know OC Transpo is trying to encourage ridership, but existing traffic problems should be addressed first before ridership problems.
The current plan doesn't even say about connecting to MacDonald Airport. I doubt tourists would want to take the packed 97.
I don't understand this part: sharing the Transitway with buses. It's either one or the other. What's the point in having the O-Train when the buses can go farther? Solution: Put it underground, especially at Alberta and Slater. If it's at street level, the train will go at the slow speed like the buses and cars during peak hours. I don't see any point in that. And I don't think any city has a train riding on the streets. Streetcars would be a better and cheaper solution too, but since the O-Train already exists, Ottawa wants to keep using it I suppose.
In fantasy land, the whole transitway should be replaced by the O-Train on the ground level and should go underground where necessary like when streets appear. This will increase ridership and traffic flow (especially with the speed of the train and train capacity).
B
bizorky
Guest
In all fairness, the O-Train was set up on a limited budget. The existing line used to showcase the train was available, and while it was not perfect, it is surrounded by immense development potential. The initial investmentment was meant to show the viability of the train.
As for the Barrhaven to University of Ottawa, that will take the train right through downtown, which is choke point for traffic. Putting it underground would be a huge cost, and unnecessary. It should, however, have been looped to Gatineau as that would have brought the train near most of the most significant office density in the entire city.
Bringing the train out to the airport is not needed. There simply isn't the necessary traffic to do so right now. The times I used the 97 to get to the airport, it was hardly packed.
Where to bring the train when dealing with the low-density suburban sprawl is an issue, and I can understand your frustration. Some of the choices do not appear to look like priorities. One can only hope that future expansion will improve on the more obvious east-west needs.
As for the Barrhaven to University of Ottawa, that will take the train right through downtown, which is choke point for traffic. Putting it underground would be a huge cost, and unnecessary. It should, however, have been looped to Gatineau as that would have brought the train near most of the most significant office density in the entire city.
Bringing the train out to the airport is not needed. There simply isn't the necessary traffic to do so right now. The times I used the 97 to get to the airport, it was hardly packed.
Where to bring the train when dealing with the low-density suburban sprawl is an issue, and I can understand your frustration. Some of the choices do not appear to look like priorities. One can only hope that future expansion will improve on the more obvious east-west needs.
L
lazyandrandom
Guest
I still don't see how adding a train on downtown streets will solve any kind of problem. This would just add to the traffic problem. And if the train will supposedly help reduce traffic, it should be going to Hurdman at least and all buses along the transitway from Hurdman to Bayview should be taken out. I really don't see how a train can go any faster than buses and cars when they are all going the same speed on streets with frequent traffic lights. At least when it's underground, there's no car or bus traffic there, which means faster trip.
Another thing that bothers me are the poor fare collection at O-Train stations. Anyone can hop on for free and not buy that ticket from the vending machine. The drivers don't even check anyway.
The only thing I like about the O-Train is the train itself. It's pretty high tech with their next stop announcements and displays on the train. The seats are alright. Too bad so few people ride the O-Train.:lol
Another thing that bothers me are the poor fare collection at O-Train stations. Anyone can hop on for free and not buy that ticket from the vending machine. The drivers don't even check anyway.
The only thing I like about the O-Train is the train itself. It's pretty high tech with their next stop announcements and displays on the train. The seats are alright. Too bad so few people ride the O-Train.:lol
B
bizorky
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
Other than rush hour there is no traffic problem in downtown Ottawa. Transit operates before and after rush hour periods, and on weekends.
The purpose of the O-Train is to offer improved transit service, which may help to reduce traffic. It is not an intended conclusion to the problem of traffic congestion. That would require changes on the part of individual drivers.
There are plans to bring the O-Train to Hurdman; but Hurdman is, itself, an existing transit error. There is nothing there. It is a truly strange place for a transfer point.
Other than rush hour there is no traffic problem in downtown Ottawa. Transit operates before and after rush hour periods, and on weekends.
The purpose of the O-Train is to offer improved transit service, which may help to reduce traffic. It is not an intended conclusion to the problem of traffic congestion. That would require changes on the part of individual drivers.
There are plans to bring the O-Train to Hurdman; but Hurdman is, itself, an existing transit error. There is nothing there. It is a truly strange place for a transfer point.
B
Brighter Hell
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
Actually light rail systems all over the world have trains riding on streets.And I don't think any city has a train riding on the streets.
L
lazyandrandom
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
But those are streetcars (like ones in Toronto), I'm talking about actual trains.
Actually light rail systems all over the world have trains riding on streets.
But those are streetcars (like ones in Toronto), I'm talking about actual trains.
Agree. It's in the middle of nowhere. They probably needed some room for bus parking, since some bus routes end there. There's no room at Lees station for any bus parking.There are plans to bring the O-Train to Hurdman; but Hurdman is, itself, an existing transit error. There is nothing there. It is a truly strange place for a transfer point.
C
cdl42
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
"But those are streetcars (like ones in Toronto), I'm talking about actual trains."
The vehicles that will be used on the new O-train line are not the same as those currently being used, they will be closer to streetcars and will be basically the same as the vehicles used for on-street running throughout North America and Europe.
It's not as if they're planning to run GO trains down Albert and Slater... but even that wouldn't be unique, Oakland is one example where they do that.
"But those are streetcars (like ones in Toronto), I'm talking about actual trains."
The vehicles that will be used on the new O-train line are not the same as those currently being used, they will be closer to streetcars and will be basically the same as the vehicles used for on-street running throughout North America and Europe.
It's not as if they're planning to run GO trains down Albert and Slater... but even that wouldn't be unique, Oakland is one example where they do that.
S
spmarshall
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
It's called Proof of Payment! If you get caught by the OC Transpo special constables, you're fined a hefty amount. GO, and many urban rail systems do this - like Vancouver's Skytrain.
Another thing that bothers me are the poor fare collection at O-Train stations. Anyone can hop on for free and not buy that ticket from the vending machine. The drivers don't even check anyway.
It's called Proof of Payment! If you get caught by the OC Transpo special constables, you're fined a hefty amount. GO, and many urban rail systems do this - like Vancouver's Skytrain.
L
lazyandrandom
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
Oh yeah! That's true. I forgot about the new Siemens trains. It will be using electric power. Are the ones right now using electric power?
But that's not a good fare system. Sure, it might get OC Transpo more money, but the people who don't pay once in a while won't be screwed over. Those constables don't check often enough (I know it costs money to hire them), but the system shouldn't have passengers riding for free. Oh well, I guess it would cost more money if there is a fare collector at each station.
The vehicles that will be used on the new O-train line are not the same as those currently being used, they will be closer to streetcars and will be basically the same as the vehicles used for on-street running throughout North America and Europe.
Oh yeah! That's true. I forgot about the new Siemens trains. It will be using electric power. Are the ones right now using electric power?
It's called Proof of Payment! If you get caught by the OC Transpo special constables, you're fined a hefty amount. GO, and many urban rail systems do this - like Vancouver's Skytrain.
But that's not a good fare system. Sure, it might get OC Transpo more money, but the people who don't pay once in a while won't be screwed over. Those constables don't check often enough (I know it costs money to hire them), but the system shouldn't have passengers riding for free. Oh well, I guess it would cost more money if there is a fare collector at each station.
S
spmarshall
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
Also, except for maybe Carleton students who live near Greenboro or Carling stations, there wouldn't be much opportunity to get a free ride. Confederation and Bayview stations are in the middle of nowhere, and the O-Train is best to connect two of the Transhitway legs to Carleton U. I bet most O-Train trips connect with buses as some point, where it's harder to evade fares.
When Carleton's in session, that train can get packed.
Also, except for maybe Carleton students who live near Greenboro or Carling stations, there wouldn't be much opportunity to get a free ride. Confederation and Bayview stations are in the middle of nowhere, and the O-Train is best to connect two of the Transhitway legs to Carleton U. I bet most O-Train trips connect with buses as some point, where it's harder to evade fares.
When Carleton's in session, that train can get packed.
D
Degnaw
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
lazyandrandom: the current O-trains are diesel.
Honor fare only works when ridership will be below a certain threshold, and pretty much ALL lrts fall below it. Of all the rapid transit in canada, only the 2 subways have the turnstile things.
lazyandrandom: the current O-trains are diesel.
Honor fare only works when ridership will be below a certain threshold, and pretty much ALL lrts fall below it. Of all the rapid transit in canada, only the 2 subways have the turnstile things.
C
cdl42
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
"Honor fare only works when ridership will be below a certain threshold"
POP is the standard in continental Europe, subway systems included. Many systems use plainclothes roaming inspectors. I guess when convienience is more important when fare recovery becomes less so.
"Honor fare only works when ridership will be below a certain threshold"
POP is the standard in continental Europe, subway systems included. Many systems use plainclothes roaming inspectors. I guess when convienience is more important when fare recovery becomes less so.
L
lazyandrandom
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News
Ok, so the new trains will be better for the environment.
Hmm...I didn't know that POP is used on subway systems too. I like the fare collector and turnstile idea better thought. But that's just my opinion.
lazyandrandom: the current O-trains are diesel.
Ok, so the new trains will be better for the environment.
Hmm...I didn't know that POP is used on subway systems too. I like the fare collector and turnstile idea better thought. But that's just my opinion.
That would be a great idea for OC Transpo. One time when I was riding the 95, as soon as I saw the fare inspectors (or constables, whatever you want to call them) enter the bus. Suddenly, a guy had to get off the stop when he saw them. So, the inspectors with uniforms can't catch them all.Many systems use plainclothes roaming inspectors.
B
bizorky
Guest
Re: Re: O-Train News: O-Train being killed by feds?
The O-Train is being killed by federal manipulation. This tactic should be of great concern for Toronto's waterfront project.
I don't like being lied to,' Baird says
Mayor misled government, Ottawans on rail deadline: Treasury Board boss
Jake Rupert, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, October 12, 2006
Ottawa Mayor Bob Chiarelli and Treasury Board President John Baird traded accusations yesterday over the latter's decision to force a new city council vote on the already approved north-south light-rail project.
The move throws into doubt on the future of the project, raises accusations of federal meddling in municipal affairs and the mayoral campaign, concerns about potential cost increases and questions about what would happen if the new council kills the project.
It also boosts the importance of light rail in this fall's campaign.
In an interview, Mr. Baird accused Mr. Chiarelli and senior city staff of lying when they said a contract with a group of companies chosen to build the $880-million project had to be completed by Sunday.
Mr. Baird said after reviewing the contact, it is clear "the fact is" the deadline is mid-December.
"We were told all along the deadline was mid-October, not mid-December," he said. "I was misled, people were misled. The federal government was misled. We were told it had to be signed immediately, and that's not true.
"I don't like being lied to."
Yesterday, Mr. Chiarelli and city staff stuck by the mid-October deadline, saying the quoted price is only good until then and the extension clause was never meant to be used as a political football.
He said for political reasons, Mr. Baird wanted to halt the project during the municipal election campaign, and hung his hat on a faulty interpretation of a clause in the contract.
"There has been no misleading, no coverup," the mayor said. "This type of interference throws a monkey wrench into the timeline agreed upon. He found a hook, for political reasons, to argue that the deadline was beyond the election."
The city is receiving $200 million each from the federal and provincial governments. The rest of the money for the Barrhaven-to-University of Ottawa line was to be financed by the city.
Council OK'd the project in July. Shortly after, the provincial government confirmed its contribution.
In a decision announced earlier this week, Mr. Baird said the money would be handed over because the project had passed technical reviews by several federal ministries.
But, he said, the money would only be granted if the new city council, to be elected on Nov. 13, also approves the project.
Mr. Chiarelli is in a tough campaign against former councillor Alex Munter and technology millionaire Larry O'Brien, both of whom are against parts of the project.
Mr. O'Brien has several people working on his campaign who have worked for Mr. Baird before.
Mr. Baird "is doing his job, which is to protect the taxpayers of the city and the taxpayers of the country, it was a tough decision," Mr. O'Brien said. "There have been many, many mistakes made on this project, and it's time to take a sober second look. It's never too late to do the right thing."
Mr. O'Brien said he didn't have enough information to say whether he would vote for or against it if elected. He says he would, as mayor, order a review to make sure the city is getting value for money, or see if there is a better way to build the line.
Also yesterday, Mr. Munter accused the mayor of lying in July when staff and the mayor said if the project was delayed until after the election, the city would be liable for rising costs.
He said since Mr. Baird's review shows the completion deadline can be extended to Dec. 15 without cost increases, it shows the mayor pushed for completion of the contract to boost his campaign.
"He misled the public and city council in an attempt to ram this through before an election."
If elected mayor, the former councillor would scrap the downtown portion, which is to run on city streets, and the link to Barrhaven. Mr. Munter's line would run from LeBreton Flats to the airport, and he would use leftover money on an east-west line.
Mr. Chiarelli, a Liberal who has clashed with Mr. Baird before, accused the Treasury Board president of meddling in municipal politics, and possibly breaking the law.
"There are lawyers who think that what he's done is an illegal act," Mr. Chiarelli said. "The dynamics are very, very strange. What other reason (than meddling in municipal politics) could there be for the timing of this?"
Mr. Baird called that idea stupid.
"We are not going to sign off on a potential billion-dollar project 33 days before a municipal election."
Mr. Baird said the contract, which city councillors have never seen and has been kept from the public, has several troubling areas where cost overruns could occur.
He said the city, without putting a shovel in the ground, has already asked the federal and provincial governments for $24 million more to extend the line to Barrhaven.
"It has never been fully costed. There are things in there that the city will be responsible for and they have not been worked out.
"The new city council has a right to decide this issue because they are the ones who will have to deal with it."
If the new council killed the project, he said, the $200 million from the federal government would be available for any other transit infrastructure project the city came up with, subject to federal ministry reviews.
"The money is there, 100 per cent, for the city," he said.
At a press conference yesterday, light-rail project leader Rejean Chartrand and city manager Kent Kirkpatrick and Mr. Chiarelli challenged Mr. Baird's allegations about the project.
They said the price quoted by the companies is only good until Oct. 15 because the work needs to be started right away, the project is fully costed out, the ability to pay is secure, and contingency funds have been set aside.
Mr. Kirkpatrick said the clauses that extend the deadline by two months were not designed to accommodate an election, but rather to cross the T's and dot the I's. He also said the delay could result in extra costs, and the issue of who would pay will need to be examined.
Mr. Baird's move also angered several city councillors who voted for the project, and a few who voted against it.
"This should be a wakeup call for every municipality in this country, that this federal government doesn't believe in local democracies, and they are willing to thwart the will of a democratically elected governments," said Councillor Diane Deans.
"Federal government manipulation like this is un-Canadian."
City council passed a resolution calling on the mayor to phone Prime Minister Stephen Harper and ask him to rein in Mr. Baird. They also passed resolutions guaranteeing the companies money for work done between now and the December vote, and ordered city staff to continue with work needed to be ready for an April 2007 construction start.
Some councillors were angry because in July, when they tried to get council to delay the decision, staff said it would add between $65 million and $80 million to the cost of the project.
"I, for one, feel misled," said Councillor Alex Cullen, who tried to get council to delay the decision in July. "We were always told there would be penalties and costs" if the project was delayed.
Councillors also said light rail has just become a major election issue.
Capital Councillor Clive Doucet, an strong supporter of the project, said he will make it his No. 1 issue.
"If people don't want this project, they don't want me, and they know what to do on Nov. 13," he said.
© The Ottawa Citizen 2006
The O-Train is being killed by federal manipulation. This tactic should be of great concern for Toronto's waterfront project.
I don't like being lied to,' Baird says
Mayor misled government, Ottawans on rail deadline: Treasury Board boss
Jake Rupert, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, October 12, 2006
Ottawa Mayor Bob Chiarelli and Treasury Board President John Baird traded accusations yesterday over the latter's decision to force a new city council vote on the already approved north-south light-rail project.
The move throws into doubt on the future of the project, raises accusations of federal meddling in municipal affairs and the mayoral campaign, concerns about potential cost increases and questions about what would happen if the new council kills the project.
It also boosts the importance of light rail in this fall's campaign.
In an interview, Mr. Baird accused Mr. Chiarelli and senior city staff of lying when they said a contract with a group of companies chosen to build the $880-million project had to be completed by Sunday.
Mr. Baird said after reviewing the contact, it is clear "the fact is" the deadline is mid-December.
"We were told all along the deadline was mid-October, not mid-December," he said. "I was misled, people were misled. The federal government was misled. We were told it had to be signed immediately, and that's not true.
"I don't like being lied to."
Yesterday, Mr. Chiarelli and city staff stuck by the mid-October deadline, saying the quoted price is only good until then and the extension clause was never meant to be used as a political football.
He said for political reasons, Mr. Baird wanted to halt the project during the municipal election campaign, and hung his hat on a faulty interpretation of a clause in the contract.
"There has been no misleading, no coverup," the mayor said. "This type of interference throws a monkey wrench into the timeline agreed upon. He found a hook, for political reasons, to argue that the deadline was beyond the election."
The city is receiving $200 million each from the federal and provincial governments. The rest of the money for the Barrhaven-to-University of Ottawa line was to be financed by the city.
Council OK'd the project in July. Shortly after, the provincial government confirmed its contribution.
In a decision announced earlier this week, Mr. Baird said the money would be handed over because the project had passed technical reviews by several federal ministries.
But, he said, the money would only be granted if the new city council, to be elected on Nov. 13, also approves the project.
Mr. Chiarelli is in a tough campaign against former councillor Alex Munter and technology millionaire Larry O'Brien, both of whom are against parts of the project.
Mr. O'Brien has several people working on his campaign who have worked for Mr. Baird before.
Mr. Baird "is doing his job, which is to protect the taxpayers of the city and the taxpayers of the country, it was a tough decision," Mr. O'Brien said. "There have been many, many mistakes made on this project, and it's time to take a sober second look. It's never too late to do the right thing."
Mr. O'Brien said he didn't have enough information to say whether he would vote for or against it if elected. He says he would, as mayor, order a review to make sure the city is getting value for money, or see if there is a better way to build the line.
Also yesterday, Mr. Munter accused the mayor of lying in July when staff and the mayor said if the project was delayed until after the election, the city would be liable for rising costs.
He said since Mr. Baird's review shows the completion deadline can be extended to Dec. 15 without cost increases, it shows the mayor pushed for completion of the contract to boost his campaign.
"He misled the public and city council in an attempt to ram this through before an election."
If elected mayor, the former councillor would scrap the downtown portion, which is to run on city streets, and the link to Barrhaven. Mr. Munter's line would run from LeBreton Flats to the airport, and he would use leftover money on an east-west line.
Mr. Chiarelli, a Liberal who has clashed with Mr. Baird before, accused the Treasury Board president of meddling in municipal politics, and possibly breaking the law.
"There are lawyers who think that what he's done is an illegal act," Mr. Chiarelli said. "The dynamics are very, very strange. What other reason (than meddling in municipal politics) could there be for the timing of this?"
Mr. Baird called that idea stupid.
"We are not going to sign off on a potential billion-dollar project 33 days before a municipal election."
Mr. Baird said the contract, which city councillors have never seen and has been kept from the public, has several troubling areas where cost overruns could occur.
He said the city, without putting a shovel in the ground, has already asked the federal and provincial governments for $24 million more to extend the line to Barrhaven.
"It has never been fully costed. There are things in there that the city will be responsible for and they have not been worked out.
"The new city council has a right to decide this issue because they are the ones who will have to deal with it."
If the new council killed the project, he said, the $200 million from the federal government would be available for any other transit infrastructure project the city came up with, subject to federal ministry reviews.
"The money is there, 100 per cent, for the city," he said.
At a press conference yesterday, light-rail project leader Rejean Chartrand and city manager Kent Kirkpatrick and Mr. Chiarelli challenged Mr. Baird's allegations about the project.
They said the price quoted by the companies is only good until Oct. 15 because the work needs to be started right away, the project is fully costed out, the ability to pay is secure, and contingency funds have been set aside.
Mr. Kirkpatrick said the clauses that extend the deadline by two months were not designed to accommodate an election, but rather to cross the T's and dot the I's. He also said the delay could result in extra costs, and the issue of who would pay will need to be examined.
Mr. Baird's move also angered several city councillors who voted for the project, and a few who voted against it.
"This should be a wakeup call for every municipality in this country, that this federal government doesn't believe in local democracies, and they are willing to thwart the will of a democratically elected governments," said Councillor Diane Deans.
"Federal government manipulation like this is un-Canadian."
City council passed a resolution calling on the mayor to phone Prime Minister Stephen Harper and ask him to rein in Mr. Baird. They also passed resolutions guaranteeing the companies money for work done between now and the December vote, and ordered city staff to continue with work needed to be ready for an April 2007 construction start.
Some councillors were angry because in July, when they tried to get council to delay the decision, staff said it would add between $65 million and $80 million to the cost of the project.
"I, for one, feel misled," said Councillor Alex Cullen, who tried to get council to delay the decision in July. "We were always told there would be penalties and costs" if the project was delayed.
Councillors also said light rail has just become a major election issue.
Capital Councillor Clive Doucet, an strong supporter of the project, said he will make it his No. 1 issue.
"If people don't want this project, they don't want me, and they know what to do on Nov. 13," he said.
© The Ottawa Citizen 2006