[Admiral Beez]

With 68% (1,813) of the 2,650 people in hospital being fully vaccinated one has to question if the vaccines are working. I would have expected the inverse number.

Same with ICU, nearly 50% of the 343 people in ICU are fully vaccinated. I assume these are elderly or otherwise immune compromised people, but it would help reassure if the statistics showed such info.

COVID-19 vaccinations data

Due to technical difficulties, the case rate by vaccination status by age group is not available

covid-19.ontario.ca

 

[picard102]

I would imagine on a per-capita basis of the two groups (Vaxed and Unvaxed) that the data bares out that the vaccine is effective and that there is just a higher number of people in the vaccinated group, thus more opportunity for breakthrough.

 

[Towered]

Exactly. The tax is to reduce negative externalities - negative events that individuals do not consider either due to selfishness or unawareness. It's the same with cigarettes (2nd hand smoke), gas (exhaust) etc.

A theoretical way of pricing the tax should be:

1. Calculate cost of 3 doses of vaccine. Add on the per capita cost of hospitalizations for those vaccinated but still went to hospital (for whatever reason), divided by the number of vaccinated people. This what it SHOULD cost to take care of someone vaccinated on a country-wide average basis. (or do it by province in Quebec's case).
2. Now calculate the per capita hospitalization cost spent treating those not vaccinated for whatever reason, divided by the number of unvaccinated people.

Your tax should be 2 minus 1. That's your cost to society for not taking the vaccine. Obviously there will be more variables, but this is just high level.

I wish we could get a rough dollar figure on this. I'd be very curious.

 

[Towered]

Finally got a negative COVID rapid antigen test today, 10 days after my first positive test. Apparently this is very common, and it shows allowing people to resume their normal activities after only 5 days is wrong and dangerous. My case was very mild, and my husband actually never became positive, which is a relief.

A friend of mine didn't test positive until a third rapid test SIX DAYS after he briefly experienced mild symptoms...

 

[Northern Light]

With 68% (1,813) of the 2,650 people in hospital being fully vaccinated one has to question if the vaccines are working. I would have expected the inverse number.

Same with ICU, nearly 50% of the 343 people in ICU are fully vaccinated. I assume these are elderly or otherwise immune compromised people, but it would help reassure if the statistics showed such info.

COVID-19 vaccinations data

Due to technical difficulties, the case rate by vaccination status by age group is not available

covid-19.ontario.ca

I would imagine on a per-capita basis of the two groups (Vaxed and Unvaxed) that the data bares out that the vaccine is effective and that there is just a higher number of people in the vaccinated group, thus more opportunity for breakthrough.

Interesting study out............which may require some peer review............but its showing abysmal vaccine effectiveness:

*note that the study authors are clearly pro-vax*

Source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2.full-text

If that holds up on review, I would consider it rather damning.

 

[PinkLucy]

I would imagine on a per-capita basis of the two groups (Vaxed and Unvaxed) that the data bares out that the vaccine is effective and that there is just a higher number of people in the vaccinated group, thus more opportunity for breakthrough.

Exactly. It’s math. If you have 500 non vaxxed in hospital, that’s 500 people out of about 1 million. And if you have 500 vaxxed in hospital, that’s 500 out of about 13 million. A vast difference in terms of percentages.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1480573799837966336

 

[Bayer]

Interesting study out............which may require some peer review............but its showing abysmal vaccine effectiveness:

*note that the study authors are clearly pro-vax*

View attachment 374457

Source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2.full-text

If that holds up on review, I would consider it rather damning.

I think that has been known for a while - VE wanes overtime and is very low against symptomatic Omicron infections. They do say VE is re-established after revaccination. I certainly credit the third dose for my very mild, cold-like case, that my husband (69-year-old diabetic) didn't even catch even though it was impossible to isolate from him.

Current vaccines are based on the original virus; hopefully future vaccines will be better adapted to what is in circulation.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Quebec is both more progressive and more conservative than Ontario. It really depends on the subject.

They have a very different view on the role of the state and primacy of the dominant culture than we do.

Interesting study out............which may require some peer review............but its showing abysmal vaccine effectiveness:

*note that the study authors are clearly pro-vax*

View attachment 374457

Source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2.full-text

If that holds up on review, I would consider it rather damning.

There is nothing damning about it - it is referring to protection against infection, not protection against severe illness/death.

AoD

 

[Bayer]

A friend of mine didn't test positive until a third rapid test SIX DAYS after he briefly experienced mild symptoms...

I had read that throat then nose swabbing is now recommended; apparently this is done in the UK. I only had a very mild sore throat when I took my first test, and it was positive.

 

[Northern Light]

They have a very different view on the role of the state and primacy of the dominant culture than we do.



There is nothing damning about it - it is referring to protection against infection, not protection against severe illness/death.

AoD

What's damning is that only back in September of '21 the claim was made that MRNA vax's were 95% effective against infection; which is almost certainly not the case.

I can cite the published studies if you would like.

Any time one makes a claim which is proven to be untrue/exaggerated its a problem.'

Edit to add: The effectiveness against Delta is noted above, and while substantially higher, appears to be in the 70%-75% range.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What's damning is that only back in September of '21 the claim was made that MRNA vax's were 95% effective against infection; which is almost certainly not the case.

I can cite the published studies if you would like.

Any time one makes a claim which is proven to be untrue/exaggerated its a problem.

It was - until Omicron popped up, and last time I checked Omicron didn't pop up until what, November 21, right? Personally I consider it a minor miracle that we were able to get a vaccine that is effective at blunting the worst effects of a brand new virus/associated disease within a year of it emerging and have 80% of protected - despite the fact that the virus has since mutated into multiple strains that are either more infectious and/or more serious.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

It was - until Omicron popped up, and last time I checked Omicron didn't pop up until what, November 21, right?

AoD

I edited my post just to note that the graphs do show Delta variant as well.

While the vax'es appear much more effective there, they still only show 70-75%.

That's certainly well below what's been advertised as it were.

I'm not arguing an anti-vax position (remember, I'm double-vaxxed) I'm arguing that I don't like misrepresentation. Which this study would seem to imply.

I'm also concerned that the tracking data, even for Delta, suggests perpetual decline in effectiveness over time.

Should the data survive fulsome peer-review, this would make these among the least effective vaccines ever pushed into mass circulation.

A paper summarizing relative effectiveness of major vaccines of all-types through the years can be found here:

Successful Vaccines - PMC

Vaccines are considered one of the most important advances in modern medicine and have greatly improved our quality of life by reducing or eliminating many serious infectious diseases. Successful vaccines have been developed against many of the most ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Bayer]

Coronaviruses tend to mutate rapidly. What we need is a "pan-coronavirus" vaccine that can be useful against many different strains. Failing that, I think we will have a scenario where vaccines protecting against several circulating strains might be introduced every year, as is done with influenza.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Coronaviruses tend to mutate rapidly. What we need is a "pan-coronavirus" vaccine that can be useful against many different strains. Failing that, I think we will have a scenario where vaccines protecting against several circulating strains might be introduced every year, as is done with influenza.

Exactly - and frankly it is perfectly acceptable to see this initial wave of vaccination as priming the population against future severe disease. Just because a vaccine cannot produce a durable prevention of infection against each and every strain doesn't mean it is a failure.

AoD

 

[zang]

There is nothing damning about it - it is referring to protection against infection, not protection against severe illness/death.

AoD

Was about to state that it doesn't measure severity. It's everything from asymptomatic down to death.