[micheal_can]

I think the main reason that projects are slow isn't to do with environmental regs or grandiose stations. It's just manpower, pure and simple. In all industries reducing labor costs to increase profits has been the goal of businesses for decades, even if quality or speed suffer. Construction is no different. Pass by any major publics works project, and it often seems there's nobody on site. And it's because there isn't, there's no profit in building faster

So,using the Eglinton line that is stuck in purgatory, had we doubled the manpower, would it be running by now? Is it that simple?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

So,using the Eglinton line that is stuck in purgatory, had we doubled the manpower, would it be running by now? Is it that simple?

Quite possibly yes. There's other factors of course, bored tunnels take longer than cut and cover, modern cbtc systems are much more complex to setup than old fixed block signalling, the pandemic destroyed supply chains, etc.

But I still believe the biggest difference between projects now and projects then is manpower.

For example BART started construction in 1964 and first opened in 1972. They used over 5000 workers at the peak, and the first section was about 32km long

Eglinton used 2400 workers at the peak, less than half. It's shorter of course, but has more underground than BARTs first section did

 

[lenaitch]

Fourth, when seeking tenders, they put up their proposals, costs, and timeline they should be held to them by force of law.

Holding a major, multi-year project bid to its original costs would likely mean no company would ever build. They can't control the cost of their inputs.

We built the corvettes on an idea of urgency. Kinda like how we got a vaccine so fast during covid. I wonder if the case was made that this was for national security and the most pressing thing just how quick it would be done, and how good it would be compared to how it is going to be built.

You're starting to sound like Trump. When everything is "national security", nothing is national security.

 

[Sauga89]

Quite possibly yes. There's other factors of course, bored tunnels take longer than cut and cover, modern cbtc systems are much more complex to setup than old fixed block signalling, the pandemic destroyed supply chains, etc.

But I still believe the biggest difference between projects now and projects then is manpower.

For example BART started construction in 1964 and first opened in 1972. They used over 5000 workers at the peak, and the first section was about 32km long

Eglinton used 2400 workers at the peak, less than half. It's shorter of course, but has more underground than BARTs first section did

I've heard about various companies attempting to develop generalized robots for industrial and construction purposes, which could reduce labour needs in those sectors, but for the moment that's still science fiction. I do wonder though how fast a cut and cover subway could be built with unlimited 24/7 labour and as many pre-fabricated components as possible.

 

[micheal_can]

Quite possibly yes. There's other factors of course, bored tunnels take longer than cut and cover, modern cbtc systems are much more complex to setup than old fixed block signalling, the pandemic destroyed supply chains, etc.

But I still believe the biggest difference between projects now and projects then is manpower.

For example BART started construction in 1964 and first opened in 1972. They used over 5000 workers at the peak, and the first section was about 32km long

Eglinton used 2400 workers at the peak, less than half. It's shorter of course, but has more underground than BARTs first section did

So, then the next question is: where do we get them from? The challenge is the trades in general are hurting and immigration seems like a bad word these days.

I've heard about various companies attempting to develop generalized robots for industrial and construction purposes, which could reduce labour needs in those sectors, but for the moment that's still science fiction. I do wonder though how fast a cut and cover subway could be built with unlimited 24/7 labour and as many pre-fabricated components as possible.

Naive me thought TBMs were automated and all that is needed are the dump trucks for the spoils. If they aren't any more automated than regular cut and cover, then it is time to inconvenience the businesses again and do cut and cover.

 

[lenaitch]

Cut and cover is fine if the dig follows a road and is fairly shallow (no, I don't know what the practical limits are).

 

[Kyle Campbell]

So, then the next question is: where do we get them from? The challenge is the trades in general are hurting and immigration seems like a bad word these days.

Productivity is higher than back then, so we might not need to double the amount of people. I'd suggest more like a 25% increase in number of people, which is might be achievable even with the shortages.

However, companies also expect a much higher profit margin then they did back then, so it's also going to be quite a bit more costly

 

[micheal_can]

Productivity is higher than back then, so we might not need to double the amount of people. I'd suggest more like a 25% increase in number of people, which is might be achievable even with the shortages.

If you used to need, say 100 welders and now you need 125 welders, but you cannot even find 100 welders, how is this an achievable solution? That is the reality of our trades these days.

However, companies also expect a much higher profit margin then they did back then, so it's also going to be quite a bit more costly

How do you fix that?
Maybe tie in a bonus for completing on time and on budget, but have a timeline that is what we want as apposed to what they want. So, for instance, the ALTO project is expected to take 15 years.If they open it in 10 years and it is on budget, they get a 10% bonus. If it is late, no bonus.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

If you used to need, say 100 welders and now you need 125 welders, but you cannot even find 100 welders, how is this an achievable solution? That is the reality of our trades these days.


How do you fix that?
Maybe tie in a bonus for completing on time and on budget, but have a timeline that is what we want as apposed to what they want. So, for instance, the ALTO project is expected to take 15 years.If they open it in 10 years and it is on budget, they get a 10% bonus. If it is late, no bonus.

I'm just stating the realities. People are hoping that there's easy answers, "slash red tape and everything will be like it used to", but that's not the case.

If we want projects to go as fast as they used to, it means we'd have to go with simpler technology and construction techniques and apply more people, and accept all the tradeoffs that come with it. We'd also have to prioritize the trades working on public projects rather than Yet Another Condo Tower.

I'm not saying these are good tradeoffs though. It's one of those triads, you can have it fast, good, or cheap. Pick one.

I also realize most projects these days seem to instead be slow, crappy, and expensive

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Longer term, there's probably ways we can innovate, such as robotics as mentioned. We could also probably do more standardization. Unlike a federally regulated railroad, pretty much every public transit system is unique and requires a very high level of customization, which slows things down.

Our trades shortage is due to cultural issues, for a few generations now we haven't valued blue collar work, it's been looked at as if your weren't good enough for a white collar job. The immigrants we've imported are even more this way, there's truth in the stereotype about pressure to be a doctor,lawyer, engineer on 2nd generation Canadians.

 

[slickpete83]

too many environmental studys and consulting the community time wasters, plus unions, topped with everything wrapped in red tape

nothing will ever change in Canada

 

[micheal_can]

I'm just stating the realities. People are hoping that there's easy answers, "slash red tape and everything will be like it used to", but that's not the case.

If we want projects to go as fast as they used to, it means we'd have to go with simpler technology and construction techniques and apply more people, and accept all the tradeoffs that come with it. We'd also have to prioritize the trades working on public projects rather than Yet Another Condo Tower.

I'm not saying these are good tradeoffs though. It's one of those triads, you can have it fast, good, or cheap. Pick one.

I also realize most projects these days seem to instead be slow, crappy, and expensive

Can I have 2? Good and fast. I am willing to accept expensive if it is costed out at that price. It is rare when it is on budget.

Longer term, there's probably ways we can innovate, such as robotics as mentioned. We could also probably do more standardization. Unlike a federally regulated railroad, pretty much every public transit system is unique and requires a very high level of customization, which slows things down.

Doesn't Eglinton use the same LRV tech as the other LRT systems built in Ontario in the last decade? If so, what is the excuse?

Our trades shortage is due to cultural issues, for a few generations now we haven't valued blue collar work, it's been looked at as if your weren't good enough for a white collar job. The immigrants we've imported are even more this way, there's truth in the stereotype about pressure to be a doctor,lawyer, engineer on 2nd generation Canadians.

I feel this is likely the biggest challenge to overcome. Hopefully when the next phase of HSR building happens, we have enough tradespeople.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Doesn't Eglinton use the same LRV tech as the other LRT systems built in Ontario in the last decade? If so, what is the excuse?.

Actually it's using an amalgam. It's basically a combination of the O-Train and Ion in one line, and uses two different signalling systems, which is what complicates things. You have to handle trains switching from the cbtc portion underground to the fixed block system above ground, and ensure things time correctly since the above ground portion doesn't have absolute priority, and trains can fall behind or bunch

I'm not sure why they thought this was a good idea. It would have been better to just do like Calgary on the surface portion, and have trains preempt the lights and have crossing arms come down. You could have done cbtc along the whole length then. Conversely, maybe they should have done fixed block along the whole length. I mean it served the subway for decades, and if headways are constrained anyway by the above ground section it's not like your going to have trains that close together

 

[Milaisacat]

First, get rid of some of these ridiculous environmental reviews. Why do Finch & Eglinton need them? What if they find something, are they going to shut down those streets to traffic? I think not but somehow, it can stop a transit line. If it is going thru a sensitive environmental area then certainly but if it is just going own a current transit corridor like LRT, subway, GO, the absolutely not.

Second, standardize all stations. Get rid of this stupid notion that stations should be Taj Mahal fill ins. Stations should be safe, accessible, and pleasant but nothing more. Also, unless it is a very high traffic area, stations should only have one main entrance.

Third, for GO rail, there shouldn't be any community consultations. GO should be respectful and put up needed things like sound barriers and making sure that the stations are pleasant but that's it. These people who CHOOSE to live near a rail line cannot bitch that now there are trains going by.

Fourth, when seeking tenders, they put up their proposals, costs, and timeline they should be held to them by force of law. They can allow small variations but no more than 3 months late nor 10% above budget. They will know this BEFORE the contract is signed so they can't take it to court later claiming they didn't know. Conversely, cities/transit agencies should present realistic timelines/costs as opposed to little more than the suggestions they are now and should not be able to change their minds on different aspects of the line once signed so you don't get the endless law suits that are plaguing Eglinton/Finch. They should incentivize building on-time/budget by offering the full amount agreed to even if they come in under budget...........as long as all work is completed to good standard, if they manage to come in, as an example, $300 million under budget, they keep that $300 million free and gratia. Ditto for projects that comes in early. Nothing will make contractors more motivated to stay on budget and get projects built quickly than free money.

Fifth, standardize vehicles so you don't need new operations/storage facilities for every different kind of vehicle all over the city. LRT should have the same gauge as TTC streetcars. OL should be using standard TTC subway trains.

Sixth, get rid of all consultancy fees. These should be done in house by the transit agencies themselves.

Seventh, use best practices and follow European standards in building. They know how to build on-time and on-budget so ML/TTC should follow their leads.

Eighth, all levels of gov't, including the cities, must put hardcore money into the projects so everyone has skin in the game and they would be accountable in the next civic election for their incompetence if not delivered on time and on budget.

In more of a decade of seeing your comments on SSP and here, this is the first time I have agreed with everything you said, with the single exception that Ontario LRT should use standard gauge, not the nonsense TTC Streetcar gauge. Notwithstanding variations in loading gauge, committing to standard gauge lets us access the world's transit vehicle manufacturers. Requiring global companies to consider how, or if, they can adapt their standard gauge designs to the TTC Streetcar gauge undoubtedly curtails market interest in vehicle procurement tenders.

 

[micheal_can]

Actually it's using an amalgam. It's basically a combination of the O-Train and Ion in one line, and uses two different signalling systems, which is what complicates things. You have to handle trains switching from the cbtc portion underground to the fixed block system above ground, and ensure things time correctly since the above ground portion doesn't have absolute priority, and trains can fall behind or bunch

I'm not sure why they thought this was a good idea. It would have been better to just do like Calgary on the surface portion, and have trains preempt the lights and have crossing arms come down. You could have done cbtc along the whole length then. Conversely, maybe they should have done fixed block along the whole length. I mean it served the subway for decades, and if headways are constrained anyway by the above ground section it's not like your going to have trains that close together

Why couldn't they use a signal system like they do above for below?
Mind you, now we are getting at the things we need to learn to make ALTO a success. The problem is,we need to 'Canadianize' everything we touch. IIRC there as a France company that build HSR. I'll bet if they say to use 'x; coupler, someone will require 'y' to be used so it meets our regulations. Heaven forbid we change the regulations to reflect today's modern times.