innsertnamehere
Superstar
Yup. It's the opposite of the Netherlands which actually has a large number of urban expressways through it's cities to shift car traffic away from areas with pedestrians. It ends up working better for everyone.
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- Thread starter Midtown Urbanist
- Start date
micheal_can
Senior Member
Outside the core, they are horrible to walk on, but are not too bad to bike along.
Haljackey
Active Member
London's roads are not beefed up at all however. There are no 6 lane arterials, and many 4 lane roads lack a centre turn lane, causing a lot of backup in the left lane when someone is trying to turn left. Only 3 intersections have partial double-left turns as well, and many many more are needed. One dedicated left turn lane for buses does exist however.
...There is a super short 6 lane stretch on Wellington by Victoria Hospital, but this is being changed to 4 lanes + 2 BRT lanes.
When I see people like Not Just Bikes making fun of London for it's stroads, we're really not a good example to use. Sure there are some 'stroady' stretches but they're pretty small/tight compared to where you see elsewhere. Our neighbours Windsor and Waterloo Region both have expressways, 6 lane roads, and some spots where the centre turn lane is wide enough to handle a car in each direction. Ex here's Dougal Ave in Windsor:
A major road. Compare that to Wharncliffe Road in London:
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Both have the same suburban commercial plazas and stuff on each side, and I'm sure the two handle similar traffic volumes too.
...There is a super short 6 lane stretch on Wellington by Victoria Hospital, but this is being changed to 4 lanes + 2 BRT lanes.
When I see people like Not Just Bikes making fun of London for it's stroads, we're really not a good example to use. Sure there are some 'stroady' stretches but they're pretty small/tight compared to where you see elsewhere. Our neighbours Windsor and Waterloo Region both have expressways, 6 lane roads, and some spots where the centre turn lane is wide enough to handle a car in each direction. Ex here's Dougal Ave in Windsor:
A major road. Compare that to Wharncliffe Road in London:
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Both have the same suburban commercial plazas and stuff on each side, and I'm sure the two handle similar traffic volumes too.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Warncliffe is a bad example as parts of it were 2 lanes up to a decade or so ago.London's roads are not beefed up at all however. There are no 6 lane arterials, and many 4 lane roads lack a centre turn lane, causing a lot of backup in the left lane when someone is trying to turn left. Only 3 intersections have partial double-left turns as well, and many many more are needed. One dedicated left turn lane for buses does exist however.
...There is a super short 6 lane stretch on Wellington by Victoria Hospital, but this is being changed to 4 lanes + 2 BRT lanes.
When I see people like Not Just Bikes making fun of London for it's stroads, we're really not a good example to use. Sure there are some 'stroady' stretches but they're pretty small/tight compared to where you see elsewhere. Our neighbours Windsor and Waterloo Region both have expressways, 6 lane roads, and some spots where the centre turn lane is wide enough to handle a car in each direction. Ex here's Dougal Ave in Windsor:
A major road. Compare that to Wharncliffe Road in London:
---
Both have the same suburban commercial plazas and stuff on each side, and I'm sure the two handle similar traffic volumes too.
Wonderland or Oxford are great examples of stroads.
Haljackey
Active Member
There's still a part of Wharncliffe that is 1 lane NB under a old CN bridge. It is a huge bottleneck for cars and transit. There were plans to fix this decades ago, but an old lady refused to sell her home for expropriation and lots of local NIMBYs campaigned with her to try and save it. Her house is still there but she's been forced out now finally.... but with Covid, supply issues, inflation, lack of workers, etc there's no funding in London's 4 year budget to complete the project (costs have soared vs the original 2015-2017 target). It might get underway in 2028 at the absolute earliest, but could be delayed until the 2030s due to cost and other priorities.
Wonderland is the only 'good' road going north to south in London. So ya I will give you that that it is more 'stroady' than others but it kinda needs to be to handle cross-town traffic due to a lack of a freeway in town. There was a plan to 6 lane a good chunk of it a few years back but it was cancelled due to London declaring a climate emergency. There are a lot of buses that use it, and it's only going to grow so I am a proponent of 6 laning it still but that new lane would be for buses only. That would make it flow better for cars anyway, and if dual lefts and more dedicated right turn lanes were installed it could operate fine with 2 lanes each way for the foreseeable future.
Likewise, Oxford is a decently good east-west route through town but there are tight 4 lane spots without a centre turn lane that backs up traffic just like the example of Wharncliffe I showed above. I also support widening this for bus lanes similar to my arguement for Wonderland, but since this routes closer to downtown there are a lot of spots that cannot be widened without significant expectoration, and a lot of these could be historical buildings that would be fought by NIMBYs for preservation.
-One of Oxford's stoady segments is being BRT'd between Highbury and Fanshawe College. That project begins next year IIRC.
Haljackey
Active Member
London has released a mobility master plan to see what the city's streets could like by 2050. The transit plan includes taking the cancelled Wonderland widening project and repurposing it for bus lanes. Central Oxford also gets dedicated bus lanes (that may involve a lot of expropriation in some areas). The cancelled north leg BRT is back from the dead using Wharncliffe and Western roads instead of Richmond which was decisively defeated.
Map:
More info:
getinvolved.london.ca
london.ca
Map:
More info:
Mobility Master Plan
A website with details about engagement opportunities for London Ontario's Mobility Master Plan.
getinvolved.london.ca
Mobility Master Plan | City of London
Help shape the future of mobility and transportation in London.
london.ca
ericmacm
Active Member
I’m glad that they are planning for BRT on Wonderland now. It’s the only alternative that really makes sense given how busy it is. Also glad to see the return of the North/West BRT legs and the addition of BRT running all the way through Oxford from Oxford/Wonderland to Fanshawe.
ericmacm
Active Member
The City of London made a controversial, surprise pivot in its Mobility Master Plan - city council voted to restart the Wonderland Road 4 to 6 Lane Widening EA, instead of pursuing BRT as an alternative to widening. They are, however, trying to approach it through the lens of roughing in the ability to convert lanes to BRT in the future, but I believe that this is incredibly short-sighted and a bad decision, they will most likely spend significantly more money this way instead of just going for BRT right away.
micheal_can
Senior Member
The problem is, BRT is also a shortsighted thing to do as well. Ottawa is showing how disruptive the conversion to LRT is. However, it this is a serious answer, then maybe there may still be some hope in the future.
Bojaxs
Senior Member
Seems like this "pivot" was pushed by two councillors.
I looked up some videos to get some better insight on the situation. I laughed at the end of this video when one of the two councillors pushing for this motion claimed that widening a road from 4 to 6 lanes is "bold and outside the box" thinking.
Relieving congestion in west London
A West London councillors’ proposal will direct staff to widen Wonderland Road as soon as possible, CTV’s Daryl Newcombe has the details.
www.ctvnews.ca
I then laughed at the end of this video when another councillor came to the realisation that London is becoming a major city and it's becoming harder to drive around in a car. Well, no sh*t sherlock! Have you not been to Toronto as of late?
Who elects these clowns? I don't think any of them know what they're doing. These are the type of people that run for municipal politics cause they're just looking for a pay-cheque. Some real "Giorgio Mammoliti" type of folks.
Exploring a London ring road
London’s future mobility plans may take a page from the city’s past.
www.ctvnews.ca
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ericmacm
Active Member
One of the councillors is from my ward. I sent a pretty long and detailed message expressing my disappointment and I received a low-effort boilerplate response that didn’t make a lot of sense in return. Between this councillor and the one I voted for in my old ward (he opposed the approval of our new tallest proposed buildings because it would “ruin the postcard view” of London), I have been incredibly disappointed in London’s local elected officials.Seems like this "pivot" was pushed by two councillors.
I looked up some videos to get some better insight on the situation. I laughed at the end of this video when one of the two councillors pushing for this motion claimed that widening a road from 4 to 6 lanes is "bold and outside the box" thinking.
Relieving congestion in west London
A West London councillors’ proposal will direct staff to widen Wonderland Road as soon as possible, CTV’s Daryl Newcombe has the details.
I then laughed at the end of this video when another councillor came to the realisation that London is becoming a major city and it's becoming harder to drive around in a car. Well, no sh*t sherlock! Have you not been to Toronto as of late?
Who elects these clowns? I don't think any of them know what they're doing. These are the type of people that run for municipal politics cause they're just looking for a pay-cheque. Some real "Giorgio Mammoliti" type of folks.
Exploring a London ring road
London’s future mobility plans may take a page from the city’s past.
Haljackey
Active Member
If this widening actually happens, I see 0 chance the new lane will eventually be converted to BRT. There will be way too much opposition from drivers and they'll vote to keep it for autos.
You gotta build the bus lane right away. It's also the only way to qualify for extra funding from the upper levels of government anyway.
A Wonderland Road BRT would also increase the need for the cancelled west leg BRT so it could connect to the rest of the network. That route originally went as far west as Wonderland before being canned.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
First of all, Wonderland will not be widened because the city has said that they expect the QP/Ottawa to pay 100% of the cost. The city's idea of BRT on the widened road will also never happen. When drivers can use new lanes they will never allow a politician to take them away. London has a far better {although still next to nil} chance of getting a new 8 ;lane bridge if 2 are exclusively for BRT.
Second, the ring-road will also never get built. They have talking about a ring-road in London since I was a kid in the 70s. It comes up every 10 years like clockwork and never happens and never will. Much like the idea of changing the city's name to New London or The Forest City. It too comes up every decade like clockwork and the conversation dies until the next decade.
Second, the ring-road will also never get built. They have talking about a ring-road in London since I was a kid in the 70s. It comes up every 10 years like clockwork and never happens and never will. Much like the idea of changing the city's name to New London or The Forest City. It too comes up every decade like clockwork and the conversation dies until the next decade.
micheal_can
Senior Member
There will come a point where the talk ends and action happens.
Of all the roads that could fit a BRT/LRT without a diet, Wonderland is one of them. Some places, the ROW looks like it might even fit 8 lanes across.
With the potential recession/depression on the horizon, we may see the federal and provincial government s ready to spend on transit as a way to keep people working. That may be the thing needed for the next municipal government in London to capitalize on. I do feel after a few years of the existing construction of the BRT open, the rest of the city will want it. Friends, family and coworkers will talk of using it and how easy it is. That will cause minds to be changed.
A lot of the the talks of the ring road was when it was cool to have urban highways. The fact it is persisting speaks more to the need of a quick way to get around the city, of which it would do. There will come a point where it is not just a 'nice to dream of' but a need. Every time I visit family, the drive around the city gets worse and worse. My quick routes are no longer any quicker,.
For proof, all we need to do is look at Hamilton and their BLAST plans. It took the right municipal government to make it happen.
ownthesky
Active Member
People get the city they vote for. I’m quite sympathetic to the urbanists here that live in London, but your fellow citizens are small minded little people that don’t believe in effective mass transit. I have a lot of family in London and have lived there sporadically for years, it’s not going to change anytime soon because the culture is either regressive and backwards facing or has an “I got mine” attitude that entrenches the wealth disparity in the city. It’s frustrating and an uphill battle that I doubt will be settled in our lifetime.