generalcanada
Senior Member
Previous mention has "transit options" a part of it
pretty sure this is another one of those times he makes stuff up on the spot
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- Thread starter UrbanAffair
- Start date
pretty sure this is another one of those times he makes stuff up on the spot
micheal_can
Senior Member
With Crosstown to the south of it, they could finish it to Pearson. Or do something with Line 4.
crs1026
Superstar
No Ferris Wheel ?
I can understand a politician wanting drivers to think they are on their side…to a point…. But this really is a guy locked on a vision of a world where everyone uses a car to get around… every time.
It’s beyond feasibility.
- Paul
I can understand a politician wanting drivers to think they are on their side…to a point…. But this really is a guy locked on a vision of a world where everyone uses a car to get around… every time.
It’s beyond feasibility.
- Paul
Northern Light
Superstar
The Globe's latest take on this:
www.theglobeandmail.com
The only detail of note is limited info as to width and depth:
Looking at the existing 401 in Toronto, the MTO designs to a 3.5M wide lane of traffic. and 3M paved shoulders
My read of a 19.5M would be 4 lanes per direction plus shoulders.
The minimum vertical clearance on the 401 is 5M (pavement surface to below the girder of an overpass)
Metrolinx requires 7M above top-of-rail. Rail base is likely in the range of 0.4M plus the rail height for about 0.5M
Allowing some margin of error, excluding slabs, below, between and above, you get a required depth in the range of 18M
I'm not sure how thick the slab between levels would be, but general recommendations suggest 400mm for bored tunnel and 900mm for cut and cover.
Looking at the North Connex project in Australia, tunnel depth ranges from 60M to 90M while West Connex is in the 35M to 40M range.
However, these seem to be single-level.
Three distinct levels would require substantial depth.
Given the width of the highway here, the choice to go only 19.5M wide and much deeper is suggestive of a cut and cover construction and trying to limit how much highway you close at any one time.
The river crossing issues here would be substantial.
Ford proposes three-level tunnel under Highway 401, feasibility study not started
His plan is to have a 19.5-metre-wide, three-level tunnel, with one level going eastbound, one for westbound traffic and a bottom level for transit
www.theglobeandmail.com
The only detail of note is limited info as to width and depth:
Looking at the existing 401 in Toronto, the MTO designs to a 3.5M wide lane of traffic. and 3M paved shoulders
My read of a 19.5M would be 4 lanes per direction plus shoulders.
The minimum vertical clearance on the 401 is 5M (pavement surface to below the girder of an overpass)
Metrolinx requires 7M above top-of-rail. Rail base is likely in the range of 0.4M plus the rail height for about 0.5M
Allowing some margin of error, excluding slabs, below, between and above, you get a required depth in the range of 18M
I'm not sure how thick the slab between levels would be, but general recommendations suggest 400mm for bored tunnel and 900mm for cut and cover.
Looking at the North Connex project in Australia, tunnel depth ranges from 60M to 90M while West Connex is in the 35M to 40M range.
However, these seem to be single-level.
Three distinct levels would require substantial depth.
Given the width of the highway here, the choice to go only 19.5M wide and much deeper is suggestive of a cut and cover construction and trying to limit how much highway you close at any one time.
The river crossing issues here would be substantial.
PL1
Senior Member
It's wild Ford can talk about moving this forward to RFP with a straight face. The cost, complexity, and years of disruption during construction would surely make this untenable
Jonny5
Senior Member
He knows of all the possible times this could be started, this is one of the best to actually get it going.
You have a friendly federal government that wants to dump money on infrastructure, you have a push for the giant Canadian pension plans to invest more in Canada, and you have a huge swath of the public that thinks in general terms traffic is terrible to the point "we have to do something, anything, right now, to make it better."
So the stars have sort of aligned for this to happen now. Also, I don't believe for a second the real plan is no tolls, when construction is almost done the tunnel will be at least partially privatised (sold, not leased like the 407) and tolled so those pension plans get their income return in perpetuity.
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afransen
Senior Member
The train is a fig leaf.
Northern Light
Superstar
The 'study' doesn't even report out til February '27.
That's over 18 months away.
Even in the improbable event that the study were favourable to the project, it would only then initiate an Environmental Assessment, which done at tremendous speed wouldn't report out before mid 2028. Only then can get to actual design, never mind construction.
This isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Aside from which, as someone who has some familiarity with the MTO's unfunded plans..........this is way down that list. (not on it)
innsertnamehere
Superstar
MTO has it's own internal priority list, but the Ford Government especially has been known to ignore it and create their own priorities.. The liberals tended to follow MTO's guidance more closely.
MTO has been trying to get the 400 widening done for years now and hasn't been able to with the PCs redirecting funds to political pet projects like the 417 extension, Highway 3 widening, etc.
MTO has been trying to get the 400 widening done for years now and hasn't been able to with the PCs redirecting funds to political pet projects like the 417 extension, Highway 3 widening, etc.
DSCToronto
Superstar
Does anyone (even Ford?) really think this will ever be built? Of course, it is 'possible' to build it from an engineering perspective (though installing off and on ramps would certainly be 'challenging as they would need to be very long due to depth) but I doubt it is financially possible and certainly not politically possible. Ford likes to dangle bright shiny objects in front of his audience so we do not see the grubby things happening 'off camera'. It used to be ferris wheels, now it's tunnels. When he brings out a new 'object' we are well advised to look elsewhere!
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Mihairokov
Active Member
It seems like a broad scheme to get some consultants and developers paid whilst distracting from things like developing Wasaga Beach, destroying Ontario Place, and using the notwithstanding clause to remove bike lanes.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Honestly I think people continue to overplay how "impossible" this is. It's ambitious for sure, but there is lots of global precedent and from a cost perspective Ford's subways program / GO expansion is far larger in scope and costs.
Now - is it worth the money it will cost and can that money be spent better elsewhere? That's a better question. I just don't think we should dismiss it as "financially impossible".
Mihairokov
Active Member
Where is there global precedent to bore a 20m wide tunnel underneath the length of a sixteen-lane highway?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
WestConnex
WestConnex is Australia’s largest road infrastructure project and is a critical part of a broader plan to get Sydney, and Australia, moving again.
www.westconnex.com.au
Westconnex is actually a far more complex project than the 401 tunnel would be. The 401 has a 100+m wide ROW with minimal utility conflicts - it would actually be relatively simple to tunnel under.
evandyk
Senior Member
Obviously it's possible if we want to throw enough resources at it. I'm not sure that the cost of all of Ford's transit plans together, including the Ontario Line, add up to as much as this tunnel would cost, though.