[taylortbb]

The Electro-Diesel Multiple Units {EDMU} are just diesel-battery hybrids and hence require no electrical infrastructure.

I think the key point there is the multiple unit part though, not the hybrid drivetrain. Current GO locomotives are entirely Diesel-Electric and work just like the E-power system (minus the battery), with no mechanical connection from diesel generator to the wheels. But my understanding is that their acceleration is mostly limited by wheel slip, not by available power. Adding batteries for a hybrid drivetrain might improve efficiency a little, but it's not going to change the number of driven wheels.

What we need is a MU system, where passenger coaches have motors in them, then you can actually have more tractive effort (whether it's supplied from a diesel generator or OCS).

I have to wonder if Metrolinx has looked at some sort of MU coach that can draw power from a diesel locomotive, but eventually convert to OCS operation. Seems like a way to get more acceleration today, but also be compatible for the future. If it could operate in a mixed fleet (e.g. Locomotive - 2 new MU coaches - 10 current BiLevels) it would avoid wasting all the current investment, and trains would just have progressively more MU coaches as the fleet expanded.

 

[dowlingm]

A locomotive plus a battery/panto coach with driven axles with hauled coaches behind is one thing, but I don’t recall seeing a locomotive-EMU pairing. Sounds pretty tricky to me. Metro North are going the ALC-42E / APV route, NJT the Multilevel EMU route, I doubt anyone tries to marry the two.

 

[ssiguy2]

There is nothing wrong with keeping the current diesel locos until they wear out and are eventually replaced. They are OK for long-distance and express routes with few stations. The time penalty is at the stations and the fewer there are, the less it impacts timing. This is the same for fuel consumption. Locos are fairly fuel efficient when at speed but it's the de/acceleration where they drink the fuel.

For the more local/suburban routes however, ML must start bringing in EMU whether those be EDMU, EMU, or BEMU. This is the shocking part about this whole saga. ML has rebuilt stations, added flyovers, and God knows they have gotten parking garages down to a fine art form but they have not put any thought into rolling stock like somehow they can proceed with increased frequency, lower/none emissions, and electrification without them. It's truly bizarre. What I don't understand is what the hesitation is all about. It's certainly not money as they have been given gobs of it to bring in electrification and yet have done absolutely nothing and what's worse, they have no intention of it.

It was a year ago that ML decided to eventually tell the public that electrification if off the rails until at least 2032 which was just a date they picked from the back of a napkin. How is that coming along? Any new poles, substations, or rolling stock orders taken place yet?.........ya, I thought not and we will be having this conversation in 5 years and the answer will be the same.

Does anyone know exactly WHY they have not proceeded on anything to do with electrification? Is it complete inertia or perhaps just not having any intention of ever doing it at all but even if so, why?

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Its pretty clear that the intention has never been to actually electrify anything... though I have limited insight as to why except that Metrolinx seems deeply embedded in the railway culture that takes electrification as some kind of absolute nightmare to be avoided at all cost.

 

[txlseries4]

Its pretty clear that the intention has never been to actually electrify anything... though I have limited insight as to why except that Metrolinx seems deeply embedded in the railway culture that takes electrification as some kind of absolute nightmare to be avoided at all cost.

I know someone at Alstom who for the past year+ has been working on the overhead catenary design. But they’ve also said in Feb that they didn’t know the rolling stock. Maybe Mx is just letting the work continue on the contract and won’t do anything with it, but at least at some level work is happening for electrification.

 

[ARG1]

I think we just need to acknowledge that Ford & Co just don't care about GO Electrification, to them the current diesel service gets the job done. I would also pose a possible conspiracy here, and that is there is a conflict between his car-centric nature and his developer buddies... let me explain. The Ontario Line at its core is simply a tool for land development (as seen by the closure of the Science Centre and the redevelopment of Ontario Place and the Exhibition Grounds). While on the surface there is nothing wrong with this as many subway lines around the world and even parts of our own streetcar network were built to spur land development, it needs to be understood that the OL is not some brilliant idea of transit planning but instead a way to make Doug's developer friends some money. It just so happens that in this instance the needs of the city align with the money to be made in the land development sphere.

So how does this correlate to GO RER? Well GO happens to own a lot of very valuable land, its parking lots and these lots are ripe for redevelopment. However Doug is easily the most car-centric Premier we have had since at least the late 1920's and he will not harm suburban car owners who drive to their local GO Station to ride the train into Downtown. What this means in practise is those massive parking lots are locked up and not going anywhere so Doug's developer buddies have no need to "convince" Doug to move this project along. I guarentee you if Doug wasn't so stuck in the 1950's car mentality and opened those parking lots up to redevelopment this project would be flying along like the OL is. Doug Ford is a crook plain and simple but he also knows who his voting base is so those parking lots are off-limits which means the backroom deals will need to come from other places (see Ontario Place, the Science Centre, Exhibition, and now the MTCC).

I don't think this is exactly it. Ford is not exactly an intelligent guy - he's a populist whose only real goal at the end of the day is making sure that people like him, and he will do anything and make whatever promises he will to make sure people like him. In the beginning, this was mainly focused on transit - he wanted to Follow up on what Rob wanted to do and make heavy investments on transits mainly through Subways. Part of why I believe he had such a close relationship with Phil Verster is because Phil made massive promises regarding what MX was able to build and told him that he could get done whatever he wanted getting, and Ford more or less just gave Verster a blank cheque to do exactly that. A few years pass by and MX is beginning to prove that they aren't able to get stuff done. Budgets balloon, timelines are constantly being pushed back, controversies such as Eglinton are constantly in the news, and at this point I believe Ford begins to see MX less as a political asset and more of a liability. There's also the matter of media and what your average Ontarian (particularly in the GTHA) even learn about. Its amazing just how many people I talk to on a day where unless they directly live next to a construction site - are barely aware of any of the transit projects Metrolinx is building. They may have heard of the Ontario Line, but they have no clue what GO Expansion is or it even exists - but you can bet they're familiar with the 413 and the 401 Tunnel plan. Unfortunately, I think Ford has made a similar calculus, and has realized that putting so much money and effort into Metrolinx simply isn't worth it electorally. Transit might have 2.5x more investment being poured into than highways do, but you can bet that the electorate is far more aware of that $30B highway money than they do the $78B Transit Money. Plus, I imagine that Ford at this point has a significantly higher opinion of the MTO and their ability to actually get projects done than MX does, so focusing on highways simply makes the most mathematical sense for him.

This of course leads us to the obvious question - why doesn't he spend time to reform Metrolinx and clean out the rot? And the answer is, I don't think he is capable of that - or at the very least he doesn't want to put in the time investment to do that. If you look at what his premiership has been since 2018, he's been a very hands off premier who isn't particularly interested in rocking the boat too hard unless he has a direct interest into it. Reforming Metrolinx is risky, it could lead to significantly better outcomes with better project management and faster timelines, or it could blow up in his face, push timelines indefinitely, and piss off all the unions and blue collar workers he spent years desperately trying to attract. He probably thinks that the best course of action is to just leave MX alone, give them whatever money they need to just keep the current suite of projects ongoing regardless of how many corners will now to be cut, and focus on the flashier projects he knows (or believes) that the departments under him can manage.

 

[Undead]

Can't expect a corrupt politician to fix a corrupt org lol

 

[ssiguy2]

ML is obviously corrupt and shockingly incompetent but that still doesn't explain WHY they refuse to put any effort in electrification. If they did and they screwed it up, no one would be shocked but they haven't even done that. Politicians and the top bureaucrats they employ love nothing more than a good old fashioned ribbon cutting ceremonies but ML can't even give them an excuse to do that.

Perhaps the reason is that ML actually knows that it is basically an incompetent organization and fully realize that they simply don't have the expertise to successfully complete a transit project, as clearly shown by Eglinton/Finch/Hurontario, that they have decided to do nothing. When you are not accountable for your actions, doing nothing is the easiest thing to do.

I think one of the more shocking things about ML and it's inertia and lack of progress on electrification and general GO Expansion is how both media and local politicians seem to give them a complete pass. The Mayors, councilllors, and press should be hounding the Minister of Transportation over this all the time and he would kick ML ass into gear but alas no. Maybe the really sad answer to the question is that ML is doing nothing because Torontonians don't really expect them to and are cool with that.

 

[urbanclient]

I know someone at Alstom who for the past year+ has been working on the overhead catenary design.

What a valiant pioneer of industry! What is this "overhead catenary" you speak of? Must be one of those new fangled electric gadgets those city slickers invented.

Electricity is just a fad. Nothing beats the power of steam.

Surely many a year must pass before this technology comes to bear. Surely we can't just copy this technology from over yonder.

 

[nfitz]

What a valiant pioneer of industry! What is this "overhead catenary" you speak of? Must be one of those new fangled electric gadgets those city slickers invented.

Electricity is just a fad. Nothing beats the power of steam.

Surely many a year must pass before this technology comes to bear. Surely we can't just copy this technology from over yonder.

I'm not understanding your point here. I've known people who did overhead catenary design. And road design. And sidewalk design. And building design. And watermain design.

These are all bespoke.

 

[urbanclient]

I'm not understanding your point here. I've known people who did overhead catenary design. And road design. And sidewalk design. And building design. And watermain design.

These are all bespoke.

Being a bit hyperbolic, point is with Metrolinx and its contractors, subcontractors etc. it always takes longer than it could or should.

Wouldn't put it past them to reinvent the wheel, for the Nth time.