Bojaxs
Senior Member
If the plan is to have the UPX stopping at all these stations, then they seriously need to consider a parallel running express service that runs solely between Union and Pearson. Or maybe with just a stop at Bloor.
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
robmausser
Senior Member
Its almost like, the UPX is being repurposed as some kind of...oh...I dont know, and im just spit balling here... Regional Express Rail service. We could rebrand it and call it RER or something like that. Maybe even electrify it too.
I understand why the UPX is being repurposed as this, because we have never had any kind of plan to do something like that. Obviously, theres no way the GTA or Metrolinx could ever look beyond Toronto and see how things are done eleswhere in the world. Nope, we invented this kind of transit with the UPX, and it exists nowhere else and so therefore our only option is to repurpose this singular form of transit into this new mode we invented. We should all be so proud. Raises for everyone at Metrolinx!
And don't tell Metrolinx otherwise, Deutsche think they won't Bahn you from the conversation.
vistaway
Active Member
Burloak grade separation as of July 1:
Bojaxs
Senior Member
I wonder if GO train service on the Kitchener line was at the same level as the Lakeshore lines, would we even be considering adding UPX platforms at these stations? A rider could just take a GO train to Bloor or Weston, and from there jump on the UPX.
crs1026
Superstar
Standard GO service is approaching good enough that the issue of non-airport users crowding the UP trains is being resolved.
My impression from riding UP is that both of the current midway stations do generate a solid volume of ridership to the airport, so stopping there is good business. I would predict that both Mount Dennis/Line 5 and Liberty will do likewise.
As nice as an all express ride sounds, I’m not sure that having a few stops really matters. Passengers to Union get a fast, frequent, and more pleasant and reliable ride than a limo, and UP equipment and stations are at the upper end of rider experience and convenience. Deriving ridership and revenue from those intermediate stops likely outweighs the number of potential customers who would not use a stopping service. We do not have to duplicate Heathrow Express to have an airport service that gets good ratings and reputation, and moves people well..
I am more concerned about bus and LRT and subway connections - having taken transit to the airport in many cities, I find that “regular” transit may connect to the airport well, but can be more challenging - there is seldom good accommodation of luggage.
Certainly there is an upper limit to how many stops one can tolerate… take the Tube from Heathrow to central London, or the Orange Line from Midway to the Loop, or RER from CdG to central Paris, and things do get more tedious and much less relaxing. The environment is less secure, less pleasant, and more crowded.
UP is a case where good may be good enough.
- Paul
My impression from riding UP is that both of the current midway stations do generate a solid volume of ridership to the airport, so stopping there is good business. I would predict that both Mount Dennis/Line 5 and Liberty will do likewise.
As nice as an all express ride sounds, I’m not sure that having a few stops really matters. Passengers to Union get a fast, frequent, and more pleasant and reliable ride than a limo, and UP equipment and stations are at the upper end of rider experience and convenience. Deriving ridership and revenue from those intermediate stops likely outweighs the number of potential customers who would not use a stopping service. We do not have to duplicate Heathrow Express to have an airport service that gets good ratings and reputation, and moves people well..
I am more concerned about bus and LRT and subway connections - having taken transit to the airport in many cities, I find that “regular” transit may connect to the airport well, but can be more challenging - there is seldom good accommodation of luggage.
Certainly there is an upper limit to how many stops one can tolerate… take the Tube from Heathrow to central London, or the Orange Line from Midway to the Loop, or RER from CdG to central Paris, and things do get more tedious and much less relaxing. The environment is less secure, less pleasant, and more crowded.
UP is a case where good may be good enough.
- Paul
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WB62
Senior Member
This is what DB proposed in 2022/2023:
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
The Kitchener Line 4th track seems to have made it as far south as the Wallace Ave pedestrian bridge, with rails fastened to the concrete ties and awaiting ballast.
Metroscapes
Active Member
A reminder that Metrolinx proposed a service split, people lost their damn minds, and the province buckled. Which IMO was a pretty lousy outcome to a reasonable proposal.
robmausser
Senior Member
Just like when the TTC tried to eliminate some close stops on streetcar service. I think they proposed 100 something stops and like 14 were removed. The rest people freaked out over. But everyone complains that the streetcar is too slow...
cplchanb
Senior Member
shame that the oligarchs at ML dismissed DB's plan as too many "frills"
seems like they are taking the page from Boeing bean counters.
crs1026
Superstar
Was that not before 30-minute GO was introduced? (I have forgotten when that happened).
We should not be reducing any transit service on GO or UP routes. So yeah UP should continue to honour its past "commuter" role, as well as its "local stops to Pearson" role, up until we have equal or better options available.
If ML weren't dogging the work between Bathurst and Nickle, we could already have 15-minute service to Bramalea, even without Woodbine station. The difference between 15 minute and 30 minute UP service at Bloor and Weston is material. The DB chart clearly shows both local and express UP to be proposed at 15 minutes.... likely after additional equipment is procured, so no time soon. I would keep the 15 minute local service in place until that change can be made.... not to benefit last year's petition signers, but to build that business for airport trips.
PS - On my Monday trip, I noted that work crews have painted the Randolph entrance steelwork black. We are literally watching paint dry on the fourth track to Nickle.
- Paul
reaperexpress
Senior Member
It was not a reasonable proposal because UP Express has a 10 mph speed restriction through platforms so the proposed express service would only save two minutes compared to the existing service. The cost in terms of increased complexity and reduced frequency would have definitely exceeded the benefit in terms of time savings.
This kind of proposal reeks of a senior-level person having an idea that's good in theory, but forcing their staff to implement it even though it makes no sense in the current situation. Express service definitely could make sense, but first they need to address those speed restrictions at platforms.
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
The Board Report on Streetcar Stop Rationalization proposed to remove 35 one-way stops (equivalent to 17.5 pairs) and last I checked, 28 had been removed (equivalent to 14 pairs). Part of the problem is that councillors had already vetoed some of the removals so they never even made it into the report in the first place.
Woodbine station (actual name TBD) is a smart place to stop the UP Express since it would enable people from the Kitchener Line (Bramalea, Brampton, Guelph, Kitchener, etc) to transfer to UPX to get to the airport. Ideally we would have both express and local services to the airport, but with the current infrastructure we only have room for about 4 trains per hour so to maintain an attractive frequency, we need to just run one service type. If we're looking for stops to skip, then Weston would be a better candidate, since it is mostly used for trips to Union, not to the airport. Given that we only have one airport service, it makes more sense for those downtown trips to be served by Kitchener Line local services, which have much less capacity constraint.
I think part of Mx's desire to run UP as a local service is because they want to avoid building a grade separation at Wice (Pearson Junction). So they seem to be favouring a service arrangement with local services on the south two tracks (half of which head to the airport, other half to Bramalea), and express services on the north two tracks (which need to continue beyond Bramalea).
With local service every 15 minutes, the Airport trains can't be any more than 5 minutes faster than the local service, otherwise they'd catch up. That's presumably why the airport service in the proposed service design posted by @WB62 shows them only skipping 2 stops (which would be a 3-minute time saving, which is the most you can get away with with 12 trains per hour).
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robmausser
Senior Member
Right, I was talking about the ones prior to the report. They intended to remove more than 35 iirc.
