[ThenWhat]

The discussions of the Line 6 performance that I see are almost exclusively about the end-to-end time. But for many (maybe most) customers frequency is more important than speed. This is true for those who only stay on the line for a few stations, and for others who prefer sitting on even a slow moving train to a long wait at a station. And by frequency I mean not just the average time interval between trains, but also the worst case interval.

The average interval is determined by the end-to-end time and the number of trains in service. So speeding up end-to-end certainly helps with frequency and is definitely worth doing. But if that is impossible or difficult, frequency can also be improved by buying more trains. Which means money of course, but what doesn't?

The worst case interval is something else. Even if you speed up the end-to-end time to the originally promised benchmarks and thus get the average to be acceptable, the worst case may still be terrible. To optimize the worst case, the operations must prevent bunching and keep the trains evenly spaced. We'll see how that goes; not much has been reported so far.

 

[Vortex112]

Do we think a GO station on the Bolton line at Emery/Weston could help improve the ROI of this line?

 

[rdaner]

Yeah, but 51,000 per day is still a pipe dream and a weak one at that. I still stand by my case that Finch West did not deserve an LRT so early. Comparable cities do not build LRTs that far from downtown. There is a reason why T9 mostly replaced a 183 bus* that hit 56,000 riders per day**; and now T9 has a weekday ridership of 100,000. If the latent transit demand were the same for both cases, Line 6 should be able to easily hit similar numbers to T9. But it won't because Finch West is a low density area whose ridership is mostly driven by Humber College. Seeing as international student numbers are dropping, I don't see Line 6 coming close to the projected 51,000.

*that now runs a shortened route connecting to T9, like the plans for Line 6 and the 36
**similar to the 55,000 of the 36

We should not pick what places we prioritize by how easy it is to fix, but rather the greatest benefits to the greatest amount of people. Pardon my hyperbole: by that logic, should Metrolinx be prioritizing dedicated bus lanes in Newmarket? Prioritizing transit where there are more people living is not a groundbreaking concept. How can the same contingent of Urban Toronto members be defending LRT in low density suburbs and high density arterial thoroughfares (Hurontario and Eglinton) at the same time? LRTs are best suited for middle density that is not high enough to necessitate a subway.

Many cities have built transit outside of the provincial hub/spoke model. Don’t forget that these investments accelerate higher density development patterns so are a logical next step.

 

[lastcommodore]

Do we think a GO station on the Bolton line at Emery/Weston could help improve the ROI of this line?

Interconnecting TTC with GO is good on basically every level due to reduce Union dependency and allowing more non-downtown focused trips, however any near-term Bolton line is probably going to be rush hour only which will limit much of the usefulness, except for the four rush-hour commuters who live in Bolton and work in J&F.
That being said, some theoretical all-day Bolton line would be massively useful for 6 FW. Again, it would cement 6FW as not really a thoroughfare but a short-haul line, which is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Westey]

Yeah Finch West never warrant a subway. It was either this LRT which TO can’t even implement or curb side bus lanes. They wanted developers to build in the area so they went with LRT.

Rob Ford wanted a subway. So did Georgio Mammoliti. They realized the due to the way Toronto is - there would be no way that the LRT would actually be Rapid. Unfortunately, they were not smart enough to propose something else.
Circa 2010, the cost estimate for the FWLRT was about $1.2M for an 11 km line.
That was immediately after the Canada Line in Vancouver was just completed for $2B for a 19km line - that was half elevated and half underground.
If someone was thinking - they would have proposed an elevated line along Finch - maybe 40m trains.
Basically, the same cost as the on-street LRT but with only 10 stops and takes 20 minutes.

 

[KhalilHeron]

Do we think a GO station on the Bolton line at Emery/Weston could help improve the ROI of this line?

If it has all day service it would certainly be faster than transfering to line 1 and again to the barrie line

 

[FW36]

If the LRT was expanded towards new Woodbine GO station and a new Emery GO station was built it would be transformational easily. From both GO stations it would be 30 minutes to union station. If the LRT is improved with full priority and speed increased to 50 km per hour the LRT could travel from woodbine GO station to Finch West Station in 40 minutes. That means theoretically for anyone who lives along the line it would take less than an hour to make it downtown. If the province ever does 15 minute GO train service and the LRT is improved I Imagine long term there would be a return on investment.

 

[Rainforest]

I went out earlier this week to ride the LRT again. Though the eastbound trip took 49 minutes, the westbound trip took 15 minutes linger than that - 1 hour, 4 minutes.

It isn't just the slow speeds, it's the inconsistency that's awful.

Still waiting for the Finch West LRT

There’s not one easy fix for the Finch West LRT. Not only does it need transit signal priority, but it needs tighter schedules and better operations to live up to early promises.

seanmarshall.ca

20 min to get from the terminal (at Keele) to Jane? With only 2 stops in between? That's insane.

The good old St Clair streetcar covers the same 2 km, from Yonge to Bathurst, faster than in 20 min. While crossing Yonge St at grade, serving countless local stops, and making a detour via the St Clair West underground loop.

 

[crs1026]

Billions spent on a transit line, and they have to resort to bringing out guys with brooms to clear the tracks. More excessive labour and "man hours" to keep the line running in the winter. Not to mention they probably have to shut the line down temporarily to allow these guys to do this work.

Or we could do it the TTC way: Scrimp on maintenance crews, leave it to the operators to sweep themselves, and let passengers wait thru a light cycle or two while the operator does the job.

I was surprised that nobody spoke up about the gas snow blowers in that video. In Toronto, Councillors would spend more time debating whether to ban the TTC's use of gas powered tools than asking how to speed up the service.

- Paul

PS: You'd be surprised how little snow or ice it takes to clog the points and risk something picking the switch. When sweeping switches, they have to be immaculate or they won't close properly.

 

[urbanclient]

Rob Ford wanted a subway. So did Georgio Mammoliti. They realized the due to the way Toronto is - there would be no way that the LRT would actually be Rapid. Unfortunately, they were not smart enough to propose something else.
Circa 2010, the cost estimate for the FWLRT was about $1.2M for an 11 km line.
That was immediately after the Canada Line in Vancouver was just completed for $2B for a 19km line - that was half elevated and half underground.
If someone was thinking - they would have proposed an elevated line along Finch - maybe 40m trains.
Basically, the same cost as the on-street LRT but with only 10 stops and takes 20 minutes.

Yeah a lot of people are forgetting how cheaply the Canada Line was built compared to Eglinton, Finch or Hurontario, even adjusting for inflation The presumption that LRT will be cheaper for the same corridor cannot be empirically tested, unless both modes are built at the same time at the same place. It's always an educated prediction, not an irrefutable fact.

 

[JSF-1]

Yeah a lot of people are forgetting how cheaply the Canada Line was built compared to Eglinton, Finch or Hurontario, even adjusting for inflation The presumption that LRT will be cheaper for the same corridor cannot be empirically tested, unless both modes are built at the same time at the same place. It's always an educated prediction, not an irrefutable fact.

It does need to be pointed out though that part of the reason why the Canada Line was built cheap is because it was underbuilt. It's the main criticism thrown at the line and its already become a problem since TransLink had to purchase 12 new trains in 2018 to increase capacity by 35%; its a fundamental flaw with the line and sooner or later Vancouver will have to invest a lot of money too make the stations longer and that includes the underground stations. That lines whole M.O. was to built as quickly and as cheaply as possible to be ready in time for the 2010 Olympics and as a result questionable choices were made. Its like the UP here, it too was designed to be cheap and quick and ready for the 2015 Pan-Ams and as a result its electrification was cut and you could argue ridership has grown enough that we maybe should have invested in designing the line with larger trains in mind. I have no doubt if they could do it over again without the pressure of the Olympics, Vancouver would have built the Canada Line to the same standard and spec as the rest of the SkyTrain network.

 

[urbanclient]

It does need to be pointed out though that part of the reason why the Canada Line was built cheap is because it was underbuilt.

And you're willing to wager it's not the same for Eglinton's capacity? Even if we order new rolling stock to run 90 metre trains in 3-4 years time, latent transit demand through Eglinton and Midtown is very high. Ironically, the only thing I see holding back Line 5 demand is abysmally slow travel times à la Line 6.

 

[TRONto]

I don't think there would be a crazy amount of latent demand even in the best running LRT scenario. All new finished and under construction development on Eglinton is near Yonge. All those new development proposals won't see anyone move in until 2033. The Ontario Line will open a few years later which leaves capacity available. There are a few GO stations on the line which offer a better ride downtown and rush hour service (at least).

 

[urbanclient]

I don't think there would be a crazy amount of latent demand even in the best running LRT scenario. All new finished and under construction development on Eglinton is near Yonge. All those new development proposals won't see anyone move in until 2033. The Ontario Line will open a few years later which leaves capacity available. There are a few GO stations on the line which offer a better ride downtown and rush hour service (at least).

What about the Golden Mile? And seriously find a comparable city with 3.3 million+ in 630 sqkm or 8.3 million+ in 8200 sqkm that has a mixed grade LRT running 4 km from downtown.

Taking this over to Eglinton, there is a case to be made for complete grade separation (when we were in design, not now); based on the scale of density now set to be approved on Eglinton.

 

[TRONto]

What about the Golden Mile?

I was specifically thinking about the Golden Mile. No construction yet and the decision to start sales until people move in is a really long time. 2033 is optimistic. Also, think about 7 years into the future, how much better will GO service be?