hw621
Senior Member
For the love of god...
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- Thread starter Monarch Butterfly
- Start date
hw621
Senior Member
Not only stupid, but also incompetent and unproductive...
hw621
Senior Member
While this might help, it does not address all the issues...what about the self-imposed speed limits?
Northern Light
Superstar
Addressed via the motion at TTC yesterday: (bold is key, not my highlighting though)
Motions
Motion to Introduce Motion without Notice moved by Councillor Alejandra Bravo (Carried)
Motion to Amend Item moved by Julie Osborne (Carried)
It is recommended that the TTC Board:
1. Direct the TTC CEO to work with the City Manager, the Ministry of Transportation, Metrolinx, Mosaic Transit Group and/or Crosslinx Transit Solutions to significantly improve performance, frequency and speed on Line 5 and Line 6 by exploring and implementing where possible, the following measures including, but not limited to, strengthening transit signal priority, feasibility of increasing service frequency (including any required operating funding subsidy increase from the Province of Ontario), reviewing internal TTC and City of Toronto policies which govern speeds on surface routes including requirements to slow at intersections and have speed limits below those of parallel cars, and examination of line management data to uncover specific sources of unreliability and delay, and to provide a progress update to the TTC Board no later than Q1 2026.
2. Direct the TTC CEO to report back to the TTC Board in Q4 2026 on a plan to measure the performance of LRT lines, including end-to-end travel targets.
Motion to Adopt Item as Amended moved by Councillor Jamaal Myers (Carried)
Vote (Adopt Item as Amended)
urbanclient
Senior Member
The Paris metropolitan region has a nominal GDP per capita of $77,000 USD now, versus $55,000 USD for the GTHA. How are the stereotypically lazy, 8 week vacation, bureaucratic French doing better than us when we used to make fun of them for having lower salaries and lower per capita GDP? Clearly that stereotype was wrong.
I wonder if it's because we have inadequate transit, inadequate transit plans, and the transit we do get is 3 times the cost for the same length...thereby hamstringing any and all economic growth.
Paris is no stranger to low-skilled immigration and expensive housing. Not to mention the occasional city burning riot. God Toronto is such an unserious city.
txlseries4
Active Member
One of the board members yesterday moved an amendment on two motions that addressed that issue (bold mine):
Direct the TTC CEO to work with the City Manager, the Ministry of Transportation, Metrolinx, Mosaic Transit Group and/or Crosslinx Transit Solutions to significantly improve performance, frequency and speed on Line 5 and Line 6 by exploring and implementing where possible, the following measures including, but not limited to, strengthening transit signal priority, feasibility of increasing service frequency (including any required operating funding subsidy increase from the Province of Ontario), reviewing internal TTC and City of Toronto policies which govern speeds on surface routes including requirements to slow at intersections and have speed limits below those of parallel cars, and examination of line management data to uncover specific sources of unreliability and delay, and to provide a progress update to the TTC Board no later than Q1 2026.
from here: https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2025.TTC11.8
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Despite the same width and vehicle, the Parisian trains look much better. I mentioned in the Hurontario thread already that the Citadis vehicles feel like a downgrade on the Bombardier Flexity Freedom vehicles.
Which I don't think will help the reputation of the Finch line as rapid transit when the downtown streetcar lines are also operating nicer vehicles (at similar operation speeds...).
hw621
Senior Member
Q4 2026 lol
Northern Light
Superstar
We all get the point, and most of us agree with a great deal of it.
But...you are tending to repeat yourself and also sidetrack away from the specifics of transit to broader questions of politics and economics.
Maybe we can stipulate here that virtually everyone is unhappy with the cost of transit projects per km in Toronto (and NY as well) and the results for the dollar are completely unacceptable, and that multiple global jurisdictions deliver better.
I've spoken to these very issues in our discussion on the cost of building transit here, and on my loathing of P3s; but lets try to keep on topic if we can, and take tangential discussions to a more appropriate thread.
Aplus23
Active Member
This is the city's first new transit line and not an extension in like forever no? why don't yall give them some grace? We are asking for trams to interact with traffic (at intersections) in Toronto, this is different from Europe and their policies and their view on transit You guys say in Waterloo they operate theirs better so we do have some real world Ontario experience. Patience....
Northern Light
Superstar
Note that a progress report is required in Q1 2026, and that the TTC has now committed to improved speeds by spring.
The details on the latter will matter, but I offer that only to say there is no intent to wait til Fall to do something. The report in fall is intended to be 'what was done', and 'what's left to do that could not be done sooner'.
Northern Light
Superstar
Some grace is a fair ask; but there is no level of grace available that excuses the abysmal performance here.
People are right to be angry at 4 years late, significantly over budget and a run time slower than the bus its replacing.
That's preposterous, not teething issues.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Actually zero grace is fair - it isn't like low speed/long travel time is a problem that they just discovered; it is baked in for at least a year, and certainly would have been known by the operational testing phase. They chose to do nothing about it until after the backlash. In other words - they did not perceive this as a problem.
Grace is a fair ask when there is a genuine, unexpected issue. Even then, some sort of action plan should already be in motion while accepting an initially disappointing level of performance. This is a known issue that wasn't perceived as such, with zero plans for a dramatic improvement in place. This is a case of an organization that is completely out of touch.
AoD
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lastcommodore
Active Member
The problem here is:
- There was no communication by basically anyone involved, and even now a lot of it seems to come down to the blame-game. TTC has seemingly spent more time trying to blame the consortium or whatever than actually doing anything to speed up 6 by interpreting their contracts in the strictest way possible (Faster speeds -> we broke the contract (??) -> we have to literally consult everyone before we can do anything) meanwhile the province and MX are telling the TTC that they have the power to just go faster.
- Tram vehicle operation is not new to the TTC. We have the entire streetcar network of Toronto to show that the TTC has basically gone "We've tried making things slower and we're all out of ideas on how to make things faster". The TTC has shown literally zero interest in even making the routes with dedicated ROWs slightly faster, and has repeatedly clogged up every opportunity and attempt at doing so ("We have to consult literally everyone to remove a stop and if ONE person objects we gotta cancel!")
- These motions from the city should be entirely unnecessary. The TTC should be just getting it done, or the TTC should be demanding the city let them implement faster protocols- not the other way around.
lastcommodore
Active Member
(Double reply, evil i know)
I really gotta emphasize that the 6 FW is literally just a prettified 512/510/509. There's nothing really interesting to it. The only thing that really changes infra-wise is the double point switches, no turnback loops, and standard gauge. The rest is fluff. Off-board payment, level boarding, nicer signage... And unsurprisingly, the 6 performs on par, speed wise, as the 512/510/509, because that's it. That's the only changes.
But due to its LIGHT RAIL designation, 6 FW was mentally put on a higher standard than the rest. It was supposed to be faster. The 512/510/509 is slow due to infra and switches or whatever, or the 1000 other reasons the TTC trots out. The 6 FW was supposed to fix all the infra problems- which they did- and when all the infra problems were solved, it revealed that it was just the TTC being horrible at operations.
Left alone, the TTC has only made the streetcars slower on dedicated ROW routes. Left alone, the 6 FW will only get slower. The public, province, MX, and city need to kick TTC into high gear. Other agencies would operate this exact same line at 20+kmh avg, as has been shown in this thread.
I really gotta emphasize that the 6 FW is literally just a prettified 512/510/509. There's nothing really interesting to it. The only thing that really changes infra-wise is the double point switches, no turnback loops, and standard gauge. The rest is fluff. Off-board payment, level boarding, nicer signage... And unsurprisingly, the 6 performs on par, speed wise, as the 512/510/509, because that's it. That's the only changes.
But due to its LIGHT RAIL designation, 6 FW was mentally put on a higher standard than the rest. It was supposed to be faster. The 512/510/509 is slow due to infra and switches or whatever, or the 1000 other reasons the TTC trots out. The 6 FW was supposed to fix all the infra problems- which they did- and when all the infra problems were solved, it revealed that it was just the TTC being horrible at operations.
Left alone, the TTC has only made the streetcars slower on dedicated ROW routes. Left alone, the 6 FW will only get slower. The public, province, MX, and city need to kick TTC into high gear. Other agencies would operate this exact same line at 20+kmh avg, as has been shown in this thread.