[T3G]

I'm not quite sure I understand the obsession with always wanting to use the cheapest method to produce transit even at the expense of common sense, I don't wanna get too off topic here but having the Sheppard Subway end after five stations and then have to transfer onto an LRT just to keep going east, or vice versa is ridiculous to put it nicely. I'm sure Finch when it opens will be fine but we really need to put away the constant compromising with LRTs, I don't hate the technology to be completely honest with you but when a corridor gets introduced with a subway, following up future expansions with LRT's and pushing riders to transfer in the name of saving money is just not smart.

I agree that a forced lateral transfer is not great. The mistake was building the stubway, instead of an LRT line, in the first place. At this point there is no other logical decision than to expand that white elephant to its logical extent. We can thank Mel Lastman for the billions of dollars we are going to burn to expand this nonsensical project.

 

[Bojaxs]

Low floor LRTs have always been a compromise, they don't do anything well unless you get a fully grade separated project.

They're not even great for fully grade separated projects. Look at all nonsense Ottawa is having with their O-train. If you're constructing a fully grade separated line then it makes more sense to opt for high floor LRVs. Traditional wheels and bogies.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

From https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/Line-6-Finch-West



So unlike streetcars, no onboard PRESTO machines. Will there be videos and commercials that explain that for us mere mortals? Unless I got that wrong.

Think of it like the GO Train where you tap before you board.

 

[Bojaxs]

I agree that a forced lateral transfer is not great. The mistake was building the stubway, instead of an LRT line, in the first place. At this point there is no other logical decision than to expand that white elephant to its logical extent. We can thank Mel Lastman for the billions of dollars we are going to burn to expand this nonsensical project.

When it comes to "white elephant projects" the Sheppard line pales in comparison to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

I have a suspicion this is another instance of a Metrolinx standard overrideing a TTC standard. Am I wrong?

You would be correct. GO Trains are similar.

 

[PL1]

When it comes to "white elephant projects" the Sheppard line pales in comparison to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT.

??? You think line 5 won't get used???

I think it will be busy, but not crowded, from day one. Hopefully we'll have a lot of actual data in 6 months!

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

I guess we knew this already, but those are pretty terrible headways and not very TTC-like.

Pretty standard headways for North American LRT. Calgary and Edmonton are 10-15 minutes.

 

[stevensontransit]

Pretty standard headways for North American LRT. Calgary and Edmonton are 10-15 minutes.

I think the 10-12 minute frequency for off peak is just an initial phase before they boost the headways and span of service after late evening testings are done.

 

[Undead]

Shh and repeat after me: elevated rail is what we need in the suburbs...

 

[urbanclient]

What is it with this forum and subways? Subways are the most expensive transit option on the table, every subway project executed means less money for something else, and therefore it should be used where it's the most justified. Maybe if we spent less money building the most overpriced option to anywhere that cries out loud enough for it, there might be money for improving service in other communities.

At the risk of derailing this thread, I'll address the subway issue you have brought up. I firmly believe the issue is we have NOT invested enough in subways historically. Bear in mind, I actually do not think any part of Finch deserves a subway right now or shovels in ground for the next 10 years. The density is just too low. As an aside, Finch LRT was executed mediocrely with travel times likely above the advertised 34 minutes.

I will compare Toronto and its subway to cities/urban areas/metropolitan areas that are similar in land area and population density. To make things fair, I will exclude China and compare to near peer developed nations. *Subways = Metro, short for metropolitan railway which can be elevated, on or under the ground, as long as it's grade separated.

Data from Stats Canada July 1, 2024 estimates.
3.3million 630 sqkm: Toronto city proper
7.1 million 5900 sqkm: Toronto CMA
7.7 million 7123 sqkm: Greater Toronto Area (GTA)
8.3 million 8244 sqkm: Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA)

Toronto: 70.1 km of subway

Vienna: 83.9 km of subway;
2 million 414 sqkm, smaller, less dense city proper, metro area much smaller and less dense

Busan: 116.5 km subway;
3.3 million 770 sqkm, less dense city proper, metro less dense

Madrid: 296.6 km subway;
3.3 million 604 sqkm, slightly denser city proper
7 million 8028 sqkm, smaller and less dense Community of Madrid

Chicago: 165.4km 'L';
2.7 million 607 sqkm, smaller, less dense city proper, similar density urban area?
"Urban area" is cherry picked heavily making comparison difficult: https://censusreporter.org/profiles/40000US16264-chicago-il-in-urban-area/

Randstad: 145.8km subway;
7.15 million 6296 sqkm, similar density constituent cities, urban areas, and wider "conurbation" area

Athens: 91.7km subway;
3.05 million 412 sqkm, denser urban area,
3.7 million 2928 sqkm, less dense metropolitan area

It's fair to say, Toronto is lacking in subway network length compared to peer cities. The fact that Toronto currently has less subway than Vancouver and Montreal and will have less or equal subway for the foreseeable future is absolutely pitiful. Roughly speaking, Montreal is 2/3rds the size and Vancouver is 1/3rd the size of Toronto.

 

[Thaboss]

not normal Montreal have now a bigger subway than Toronto with the REM.

Let me be the first to say that i love the technology used on the REM. However, if you're going to compare toronto transit to montreal transit while excluding regional rail in the gta but including regional montreal rail in the REM. (Yes, the rem is regional rail essentially). We're not really having a conversation here.

Frankly montreal regional transit taken as a whole, lags torontos regional transit right now, even when factoring for rem exstentions opening next year, and especially when considering montreals post REM plans which are downright aweful.

At this rate, in 10-15 years, it won't even be close between the two regions. However, there's no doubt that downtown montreal will have much better subway connections than dt toronto.

 

[urbanclient]

Let me be the first to say that i love the technology used on the REM. However, if you're going to compare toronto transit to montreal transit while excluding regional rail in the gta but including regional montreal rail in the REM. (Yes, the rem is regional rail essentially). We're not really having a conversation here.

Frankly montreal regional transit taken as a whole, lags torontos regional transit right now, even when factoring for rem exstentions opening next year, and especially when considering montreals post REM plans which are downright aweful. At this rate, in 10-15 years, it won't even be close between the two regions.

Relative to population of the wider region, and the transit needs of the downtown core, Montreal does a much better job than Toronto for rapid and regional transit when you consider it is only 2/3rds the size at most. Higher ridership per capita should be your first hint.

I'm not even going to factor in streetcars because their capacity and ridership is little different from buses.

 

[rdaner]

^Thanks! I assume the 70.1km of rail is pre-Finch/Eglinton?

 

[Thaboss]

Relative to population of the wider region, and the transit needs of the downtown core, Montreal does a much better job than Toronto for rapid and regional transit when you consider it is only 2/3rds the size at most. Higher ridership per capita should be your first hint.

I'm not even going to factor in streetcars because their capacity and ridership is little different from buses.

I agree, montreals rappid transit is better. I did a stealth edit to mention this. However, regional transit in montreal is exceptionally subpar, such that I think things tip in torontos favor.

For ex. Its hard for me to overstate how much better torontos bus network is vs montreals.

I also think montreals post rem plans are terrible, especially when compared to Torontos regional expansion. I include hurnotario LRT in this btw.

It will take sometime but I firmly believe the debate of toronto transit vs montreal transit will be over in 10 years and decidedly in torontos favour.

 

[A 6264]

At the risk of being told, "you're crazy" (go ahead and say it, I probably am anyway ), what if, 40 years from now, Toronto decides that it wants to run subway trains where the Eglinton and Ontario lines are now? We've already got tunnels and elevated sections for much of the lines, we might have to replace tracks and rebuild platforms, but it may be really cheap to convert. Today's half measures could be tomorrow's foresight.