[Admiral Beez]

You are right. lets just buy it from someone else.

We can still have Canadian involvement. The SAAB Gripen will be assembled here, same as Canada assembled its CF-104 Starfighters, CF-5 Freedom Fighters, Grumman Trackers, Sea Kings, etc. The Gripens will likely come as knock down kits.

 

[kEiThZ]

We're not buying the Gripen. We might join one of the future fighter programs. Nobody in our industry is clamouring for low value assembly work that the Gripen offers. Trading access to the F-35 program for that, would hurt industry in Canada.

A lot of our industry are subcontractors who would rather make bank putting their widget on 3000 F-35s than 90 Gripens. This is what a lot of people hung up on final assembly don't get.

 

[afransen]

We're not buying the Gripen. We might join one of the future fighter programs. Nobody in our industry is clamouring for low value assembly work that the Gripen offers. Trading access to the F-35 program for that, would hurt industry in Canada.

A lot of our industry are subcontractors who would rather make bank putting their widget on 3000 F-35s than 90 Gripens. This is what a lot of people hung up on final assembly don't get.

Kind of like the people who think North Americans should be assembling iPhones, like that is where the well-paying jobs are.

 

[kEiThZ]

Kind of like the people who think North Americans should be assembling iPhones, like that is where the well-paying jobs are.

Exactly like that. All the value and IP is in the components.

 

[guavadelic]

Reuters is reporting Canada's military officials are making the case to stick with the F-35 order....

Exclusive: Canada defense review makes case for sticking with F-35 jets, sources say

Canadian defense officials have strongly made the case that Ottawa should stick to a plan to buy 88 Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), opens new tab F-35 fighter jets rather than splitting the order, two sources familiar with the matter said on Thursday.
The review stops short of making a formal recommendation, one of the sources said.

Ottawa has made a legal commitment of funds for the first 16 F-35 aircraft. Although Carney made clear in March that Canada could seriously look at buying the remaining 72 planes from non-U.S. companies, the Defense Ministry review concluded there was no military sense in splitting the order.

The F-35 is the most advanced fighter of its type, and buying another jet from a European rival would incur extra costs in training, supplies, and maintenance. The Canadian Armed Forces are highly integrated with their U.S. counterparts.

https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...icking-with-f-35-jets-sources-say-2025-08-07/

 

[EBT]

Reuters is reporting Canada's military officials are making the case to stick with the F-35 order....




https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...icking-with-f-35-jets-sources-say-2025-08-07/

Who are these unnamed "military officials" recommending that Canada stick with the F-35? Carney needs to route them out and fire them.

The article references some "review" that supposedly has been done recently. What kind of review was done? I know Carney announced a review when Trump started his tariff nonsense, but I would have thought that was just for leverage. What is there to be reviewed?

This is a cut-and-dry decision. No need for "reviews" by unnamed "military officials" gunning for a lucrative job at Lockheed-Martin after they retire early with their gold-plated pensions.

It is very simple. Trump pledged to destroy our economy, and he is making good on that pledge. Since Trump entered office Canada's GDP has contracted by 2%. Stop and think of that in terms of military spending! How much military equipment would 2% of our GDP buy? Trump b*tches that Canada doesn't spend enough on military i.e. on purchases of overpriced/underperforming US military equipment and Trump has already knocked 2% off our economy and he is just getting started.

Given what Trump has done it would be INSANE for Canada to buy ANY American made military equipment from now on. I would much rather we buy Chinese and Russian arms, and I am being dead serious! Heck I would be all for buying hypersonic missiles from Iran which are unstoppable by the most advanced American and Israel air-defense systems as we witnessed during the 12-day war when Iranian Fattah-2 hypersonic missiles slipped past American THAAD, and Patriot missile batteries as well as Israeli David Sling, Iron Beam, Arrow 2 & 3 and Iron dome air defense systems! Fattah-2 proved to be unstoppable! (imagine the Russian and Chinese hypersonic missiles!)

India has cancelled its order for F-35s after Trump targeted India for punishment and so has Spain. I don't know what is stopping Carney from cancelling the F-35 order. He should have done it long ago. At this point I have to wonder if Carney is compromised in some way because nothing that he is doing makes any sense.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

At this point I have to wonder if Carney is compromised in some way because nothing that he is doing makes any sense.

You are grossly overthinking this. F-35 is needed for NORAD and are objectively an excellent fighter.

The only question is whether we should also order other jets, perhaps Gripens or Rafales, to compliment the F35s and retain operational capabilities in the off-chance our southern neighbour decides to act with belligerence, while committing to another sixth-gen program (likely either GCAP or FCAS, neither of which are American).

 

[lenaitch]

You are grossly overthinking this. F-35 is needed for NORAD and are objectively an excellent fighter.

The only question is whether we should also order other jets, perhaps Gripens or Rafales, to compliment the F35s and retain operational capabilities in the off-chance our southern neighbour decides to act with belligerence, while committing to another sixth-gen program (likely either GCAP or FCAS, neither of which are American).

One problem in going with multiple airframes is the added complexity to air crew, maintainers, parts, weapon systems, training, etc. The RCAF has enough difficulty filling its current needs.

The Gripen (in my opinion) is a good fighter - for smaller countries. The Rafale, like so many things from France, is pretty much bespoke in its weapons, systems and technology. They, quite proudly, march to the beat of their own drum.

 

[EBT]

You are grossly overthinking this. F-35 is needed for NORAD and are objectively an excellent fighter.

The only question is whether we should also order other jets, perhaps Gripens or Rafales, to compliment the F35s and retain operational capabilities in the off-chance our southern neighbour decides to act with belligerence, while committing to another sixth-gen program (likely either GCAP or FCAS, neither of which are American).

Not overthinking this. I believe that Canada should reexamine our role in NORAD, an organization that for almost 70 years has existed to shield the US from ICBM attacks from the former Soviet Union and now Russia. Did the Soviets ever have nukes pointed at Ottawa? If they did it was only because we were a vassal of the United States.

Donald Trump has freed us from the vassal state status. We now need to forge good relations with Russia and China, starting with trade. If we do that, then Canada never has to worry about Chinese or Russian ICBMs, for which there are no defenses against anyway. The question becomes, why are we paying to defend the United States? Canada pays 40% of the NORAD budget. Why? Canada is 1/10th the size of the US, and NORAD, as I have explained, really only exists to protect the US from incoming ICBMs.

In addition to Canada's disproportionate contribution to NORAD, the biggest contribution to the security of the US mainland that Canada provides is our huge land mass. Canada provides a ~2500-mile buffer between the United States and Russia free of charge! How much has that been worth to the Americans for almost 70 years? When you consider that the only threat facing the United States is the threat of incoming ICBMs (they don't have to worry about a land invasion), then it can be said that Canada is the most important security partner for the United States. No other country comes close. Name a country of more importance to the defense of the US mainland? And yet despite this fact, Donald Trump constantly sh*ts on Canada, repeating the big lie "we pay to defend Canada," and our meek "leaders" are silent.

No, we don't need F-35s. If the Americans are concerned about NORAD interoperability, then they can give us some F-35s for free.

 

[lenaitch]

We now need to forge good relations with Russia and China,

I think you just showed your hand.

 

[kEiThZ]

You are grossly overthinking this. F-35 is needed for NORAD and are objectively an excellent fighter.

Folks who have never served and have no clue about national security issues don't understand the level of integration between Canada and the US on continental security. And whatever the politics, that relationship has not changed. So it won't be surprising that any review will point out the obvious: the best fighter for the RCAF that meets the policy goals as stated in the government's own defence policy is still the F-35. Until that policy changes nothing is going to change.

The only question is whether we should also order other jets, perhaps Gripens or Rafales, to compliment the F35s and retain operational capabilities in the off-chance our southern neighbour decides to act with belligerence, while committing to another sixth-gen program (likely either GCAP or FCAS, neither of which are American).

There's several issues that make a dual fleet strategy impossible to difficult.

1) The RCAF doesn't have the personnel, infrastructure to operate two fighter fleets. Developing this would take a decade. Indeed, inducting the F-35 on time is already proving to be difficult. Infrastructure and training are behind schedule. We're unlikely to meet the 2032 FOC timeline (Full Operational Capability). Probably a slip to 2034 or even 2035.

2) Any second fleet ordered is at least 5 yrs from delivery. Longer if required to be built in Canada, as proposed by Saab at one point. Getting a 4.5 Gen jet in the 2030s is a waste. We'd be onboarding aircraft that would be facing obsolescence in a decade.

The above leaves one clear path. But some quantity of the F-35. Join GCAP or FCAS and take first delivery in 13-15 years during which time the RCAF can be built up to operate a Hi-Lo mix. And if we join now, we'll get the industrial benefit, diplomatic benefit and it will give the RCAF the confidence to accept a reduced F-35 order to say 70 frames. I actually hope the Liberals take this path.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think you just showed your hand.

That's why I laugh. Not sure if they're a bot, pro troll or just so delusional with their hatred of the US, that they actually believe Russia and China will treat us better.

 

[afransen]

Not overthinking this. I believe that Canada should reexamine our role in NORAD, an organization that for almost 70 years has existed to shield the US from ICBM attacks from the former Soviet Union and now Russia. Did the Soviets ever have nukes pointed at Ottawa? If they did it was only because we were a vassal of the United States.

Donald Trump has freed us from the vassal state status. We now need to forge good relations with Russia and China, starting with trade. If we do that, then Canada never has to worry about Chinese or Russian ICBMs, for which there are no defenses against anyway. The question becomes, why are we paying to defend the United States? Canada pays 40% of the NORAD budget. Why? Canada is 1/10th the size of the US, and NORAD, as I have explained, really only exists to protect the US from incoming ICBMs.

In addition to Canada's disproportionate contribution to NORAD, the biggest contribution to the security of the US mainland that Canada provides is our huge land mass. Canada provides a ~2500-mile buffer between the United States and Russia free of charge! How much has that been worth to the Americans for almost 70 years? When you consider that the only threat facing the United States is the threat of incoming ICBMs (they don't have to worry about a land invasion), then it can be said that Canada is the most important security partner for the United States. No other country comes close. Name a country of more importance to the defense of the US mainland? And yet despite this fact, Donald Trump constantly sh*ts on Canada, repeating the big lie "we pay to defend Canada," and our meek "leaders" are silent.

No, we don't need F-35s. If the Americans are concerned about NORAD interoperability, then they can give us some F-35s for free.

I don't think you understand nuclear weapons. If there is a nuclear exchange between two major powers, the whole world loses.

 

[EBT]

I don't think you understand nuclear weapons. If there is a nuclear exchange between two major powers, the whole world loses.

I know exactly how they work. There are no winners in a nuclear war. There is no such thing as a "limited nuclear war". Once one side fires nukes total nuclear annihilation is assured for most of the world. Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD).

For Canada what this means is NORAD is useless to us and to the Americans for that matter. Even with a "golden dome" you are never going to be able to stop all incoming Russian ICBMs and the Russians have an inventory of ~5,500 warheads. Even if you could take out all warheads coming over Canada what about ICBMs fired from Russian subs?

This is why I say NORAD is a waste of money for Canada. What are we hoping to stop? Weather balloons gone astray? Same thing with a golden dome. Canada should not be wasting billions on American defense systems or alliances that do nothing to address the real threats facing the Canadian homeland.

 

[afransen]

NORAD helps with the US' deterrence, which is in Canada's interest. A nuclear exchange between the US and Russia/China, even were Canada not directly targeted, would be very bad for Canada. It's not about winning an exchange, it's about arranging the incentives so they don't take place.