[kEiThZ]

National transit strategies are never going to happen. We are too diverse a country with significantly varying infrastructure needs for a federal government to ever consider it a priority today. If it didn't happen under previous Liberal administations when there were surpluses, what makes anybody think that it'll come to pass today?

What is far more feasible and far more realistic and would help build towards a national transit strategy is encouraging the province to have a long term transit plan for urban areas in the province. Once the provinces show some sustained commitment then maybe the feds will step up. Otherwise, forget it. It won't happen, regardless of who's living on Sussex.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Are we really THAT diverse a country though? I mean, the need for efficient transit is the same no matter whether you're in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto or Montreal. What we do suffer from is an institutional arrangement that prevents the active involvement of the Federal government in areas that are clearly of national interest, but had been traditionally in the purview of the provinces which had proven time and again that is either indifferent to municipal issues or downright hostile to them. Curing this "dysfunctional" system and the beliefs which drives small-mindedness should be the first priority.

AoD

 

[SimonP]

I was in Delhi last October, and the subway system really is miraculous, and it is being built at an astonishing rate. There are some important differences with Toronto, and any other city in North America.

The element that makes Delhi subways so much cheaper are the labour costs. Delhi has a huge number of urban poor desperate for work. The government has long had programs to hire these people to do menial tasks by hand. This is how much of the subway is being built. Walking through Delhi you see gangs of several hundred labourers digging subway tunnels with nothing but shovels and wheelbarrows.

Delhi is also a vastly denser city than Toronto and the cars are packed to capacity even at midday and late in the evenings. This makes it easy for the subway to generate an operation profit, and fund its own expansion.

Thanks to British central planning, Delhi also has a network of vast ceremonial boulevards. This is where most of the new lines are going and it makes elevated lines acceptable and underground lines cheaper and easier to build.

 

[kEiThZ]

Are we really THAT diverse a country though? I mean, the need for efficient transit is the same no matter whether you're in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto or Montreal. What we do suffer from is an institutional arrangement that prevents the active involvement of the Federal government in areas that are clearly of national interest, but had been traditionally in the purview of the provinces which had proven time and again that is either indifferent to municipal issues or downright hostile to them. Curing this "dysfunctional" system and the beliefs which drives small-mindedness should be the first priority.

AoD

Perhaps diverse is a poor term to describe our makeup. The reality is that the federal government in Canada faces competing priorities like few others elsewhere.

UT forumers like to cite the Europeans. But the reason they have such strong national transit strategies is because they don't really have strong provincial administrations. There's really no province of England. They have their regional authorities. But they are in no way as empowered as ours. That, invariably, means that they need strong central governments that routinely involve themselves in matters that would be considered to be under provincial jurisidiction in Canada.

Beyond that, I wonder if it's even really a good thing. When the feds pay, they'll want a say. Do we really want the federal government starting to dictate transit expansion in a given community based on political considerations from somewhere else? Keep in mind that the feds are forced to operate under completely different rules. For example, IRBs would come in to play. The TTC could well be compelled to award a contract for LRVs to small plant in Quebec or BC for the sake of IRBs, rather than Bombardier in Thunder Bay. You can't take their money without accepting their demands.

Lastly, I disagree that the provinces don't have the tools. The province has plenty of room to raise taxes. And they have the power to really get things built. McGuinty could easily have taken up the 2% cut in sales taxes if he wanted. But he didn't. And he could have built transit at a break-neck pace if he really wanted. But he didnt. Though I like the guy, I will fully call him out on his laggardly pace, cowardice and laziness on this front.

Inevitably, this leads to the call for a national transit strategy. After all, when all else fails, ask the feds to pay right? Why can't the provinces just do what they are supposed to do and manage cities well? When does everybody let them off the hook and insist that the feds take over? And what makes everybody think that the federal government will do a remarkably better job than the provinces?

Personally, I'd rather the feds stick to their domain. Let them focus on national infrastructure, like high speed rail.

 

[hbl33]

Not to mention the healthcare and education. They should be left at a hand of national matter. I don't want another E-Health, tuition fee crap again.

If the provinces want more power, let them have "defence program". [kidding]

 

[Second_in_pie]

The element that makes Delhi subways so much cheaper are the labour costs. Delhi has a huge number of urban poor desperate for work. The government has long had programs to hire these people to do menial tasks by hand. This is how much of the subway is being built. Walking through Delhi you see gangs of several hundred labourers digging subway tunnels with nothing but shovels and wheelbarrows.

I think this is one thing that Canada could do to improve though. Why don't we get poor workers from 3rd world countries to come in here and work? You could easily get away with doing some sort of immigrant-infrastructure plan where an immigrant will work for maybe a year or two under supervision for drastically less money at unskilled labour than a specialized or Canadian-born worker would demand. It's much better than them living in slums, getting paid 20 cents an hour, as they'd still be working for minimum wage. It'd reduce infrastructure costs while training a new generation of Canadians to work and giving immigrants a reliable job that they can start their lives on.

I don't think the big problem is that the feds are unwilling to stick their nose in the business of cities. The problem is much bigger than that, just a generally slow and unresponsive system of government, and a huge lack of motivation on the parts of so many Canadians. Sure, we want good infrastructure, and I'm pretty sure that they'd be willing to change up the system for it, but we just seem unable to actually get working on it.

 

[M II A II R II K]

We would have to expand upon the already existing Guest Worker Program like importing people to pick apples and stuff in the summer.

 

[Mapleson]

And what makes everybody think that the federal government will do a remarkably better job than the provinces?

Personally, I'd rather the feds stick to their domain. Let them focus on national infrastructure, like high speed rail.

I agree completely. We need a National Transit/Transportation Plan, but only for federal developments. Provincial and municipal developments should be kept track of in such a plan to have a holistic view of transit development in the country, but transit shouldn't be nationalized.

I think this is one thing that Canada could do to improve though. Why don't we get poor workers from 3rd world countries to come in here and work? You could easily get away with doing some sort of immigrant-infrastructure plan where an immigrant will work for maybe a year or two under supervision for drastically less money at unskilled labour than a specialized or Canadian-born worker would demand. It's much better than them living in slums, getting paid 20 cents an hour, as they'd still be working for minimum wage. It'd reduce infrastructure costs while training a new generation of Canadians to work and giving immigrants a reliable job that they can start their lives on.

I don't think the big problem is that the feds are unwilling to stick their nose in the business of cities. The problem is much bigger than that, just a generally slow and unresponsive system of government, and a huge lack of motivation on the parts of so many Canadians. Sure, we want good infrastructure, and I'm pretty sure that they'd be willing to change up the system for it, but we just seem unable to actually get working on it.

Any worker working in Canada must earn the minimum wage. If not, it's not the minimum wage and it undercuts the whole economy foundation. If we are willing to set aside our comfort levels and import mass labour pools, they so be it, but it won't come without a wide impact on Canadian society.

The plan you are describing is known as indentured labour, which is a form of illegal slavery as it violates human rights.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Any worker working in Canada must earn the minimum wage. If not, it's not the minimum wage and it undercuts the whole economy foundation. If we are willing to set aside our comfort levels and import mass labour pools, they so be it, but it won't come without a wide impact on Canadian society.

The plan you are describing is known as indentured labour, which is a form of illegal slavery as it violates human rights.

Firstly, you'd be paying them at minimum wage, which is a lot better than the 20c/hour they'd make back home, and yet a lot cheaper than the rates current union workers use. Spread out Canadian and immigrant workers across a wider pool of government-funded infrastructures, and established Canadians aren't out of work, there's room for new unskilled immigrants to make money, and the government is able to build infrastructure it already needs, just for a lower price.

It's not indentured labour. They come to our country as infrastructure workers, we set up government plans to train them and get them money to start off their lives in Canada. They can leave if they want to, they don't have to come in the first place, and they could try immigrating under a separate class.

 

[rbt]

Firstly, you'd be paying them at minimum wage...

Government really doesn't have an issue with union wages since most of it comes back either directly (income tax, sales tax, etc.) or indirectly (local business taxes, ...).

Unskilled immigrants with over-seas family tends to send a majority of their earnings immediately out of the country.

There are substantial government benefits to having a large middle class as well like the ability to weather a recession.

 

[Mapleson]

Firstly, you'd be paying them at minimum wage, which is a lot better than the 20c/hour they'd make back home, and yet a lot cheaper than the rates current union workers use. Spread out Canadian and immigrant workers across a wider pool of government-funded infrastructures, and established Canadians aren't out of work, there's room for new unskilled immigrants to make money, and the government is able to build infrastructure it already needs, just for a lower price.

It's not indentured labour. They come to our country as infrastructure workers, we set up government plans to train them and get them money to start off their lives in Canada. They can leave if they want to, they don't have to come in the first place, and they could try immigrating under a separate class.

How do you figure that minimum wage labour in Canada earns more? The cost of living is much higher in Canada than the developing world. For example, a skilled manual labourer in Azerbaijan can earn C$50-100 per month (400k-800k manat) and have a very comfortable living (solid middle class). That same person in Canada at minimum wage (C$10.25/hr)would earn under $30,000 a year after tax working every daylight hour in the year.

Would you give up everything you know to work harder for less?

How much construction do you think is completed by union workers? Beyond the small internal municipal jobs, it's an industry of grafters. A hard-work, hard-wear industry that has high turn-over and short carreer spans. Would you carry 20-kg blocks around all day for the same price as taking someone's an order at MacDonalds?

What happens after 5-10 years when these now minimum wage labourers can no longer work do to worn discs and artritis? They will take your frational savings in labour costs and replace it with a ballooning lifetime of healthcare costs.

Minimum wage has gone from $6.85 to $10.25 over the last 10 years. Manual labour, which is very rarely unskilled labour, is not a glamourous job nor is it an overpaying job. If it was, why aren't you doing it for a living?

 

[lead82]

The problem here is not the labour costs but btw costs pocketed by the engineering firms and all those consulting firms. That propose unnecessary work just to milk more money out of the system. An example of this is the proposals to build a bus terminal for Finch west station and 2 separate terminals at Steeles! Also it takes so long to design these stations and tunnels where as in most other places they reuse similar designs or use tplates to reduce costs. As fir importing labour, unless it is the private sector, governments cannot spend tax dollars on foreign nationals. There would be a huge uproar!

 

[hbl33]

And are these costs are regulated by the government? Or are they unnecessary burden proposed by these businesses to increase revenue and profit?
Something that sounds like purchasing/leasing a car, with hidden extorbitant fees added into MSRP of the vehicle, let's say...