kEiThZ
Superstar
So you'd feel better if Thomson left out the price tag completely and just made a vague promise to build more subways (like Miller did with TC).
- Thread starter Ansem
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So you'd feel better if Thomson left out the price tag completely and just made a vague promise to build more subways (like Miller did with TC).
ssiguy2
Senior Member
The capacity of the Canada Line had NOTHING to do with the PPP. It was the province that dictated the capacity of the Canada Line at 15,000 pphpd. It was finished 4 months early so making the stations able to accomadate 4 subway cars would not have been a problem. The BC gov't gave IntransitBC an deadline and if they didn't get it done on time and on budget then they would bear the cost of cost over runs and face extremely heavy penalties if late. Amasing what can happen when you fly a money in someone's face...................they get motivated.
Mapleson
Active Member
I currently would support Thompson more if she hadn't included specific numbers in her plan, because the numbers she's used do not add up. If she were to revise her platform to be more realistic, I'd definately vote for her, because she isn't afraid of improvement to save face. Otherwise, the exact details of her campaign platform points to a disconnect between ability and goals.
It is exactly that reason I'm against Rob Ford. If he could legitimately deliver on what he promises, it would be one thing. In the last four years, the only piece of legistation that he helped pass/fail is in July 2007 on the "vote to defer ... $360M Land Transfer Tax and $56M Vehicle Registration Tax … deferral to after Oct.10.2007 Provincial election" which passed 23-22. Every other vote he's had in public office has been part of a landslide majority or token opposition.
The Council votes regarding Rob Ford are somewhat humourous:
Jan 2010: Do not let Councillor Ford speak about involvement in other Councillors' Wards. Passed 17-11 (17 absent)
Aug 2009: Do you agree to take Councillor Rob Ford to the Integrity Commissioner because he said that council bought a house at 54 Horsham for $750,000? Passed 18-7 (20 absent).
Mar 2008: Should Rob Ford apologize for using the word Oriental instead of Asian. Passed 33-8 (4 absent)
Jan 2008: Spend $5500 to send Rob Ford to World Aids Day in Mexico City [July 29 - Aug 6/08]. Failed 16-18 (11 absent)
kEiThZ
Superstar
^ I can't believe the same people who supported a candidate who had no hard cost numbers in his platform, and proposed a solution which blew up from $6 billion to $15 billion, are now criticizing a candidate who might be about 10-15% off on her numbers. I just find it hypocritical to say that Miller was brilliant because he didn't commit to any numbers in his campaign and Thomson is a sub-par candidate because she committed to numbers, which really, when all things are considered, aren't really too far off the mark.
She could be 50% off on her numbers, and it still would not as big of a screw-up as how quickly the TC cost estimate inflated.
She could be 50% off on her numbers, and it still would not as big of a screw-up as how quickly the TC cost estimate inflated.
Asterix
Active Member
But there is still a cost that needs to be considered.
Any private operation is doing it to make a profit. When they bid, they are accounting for all the potential risks they might be facing so as to ensure they will still likely come out ahead.
If they are facing significant financial penalties for delays (which could quite likely be for things beyond their control like weather, third parties, political decisions), then they are going to increase their bid price to account for that risk.
I'm not saying PPP isn't the way to go, but that going private is not simply a magical solution that will guarantee cost savings.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Yeah, I don't care nearly as much about TC being seriously underpriced (which, mind you, is a pretty big issue for me,) than the TC/LRT proponents actively defending TC's 2.5x price jump but jumping all over Thomson when her numbers are maybe 15% off from the actual mark.
Mapleson
Active Member
I reserve the right to change my prefered vote as new information arises. If Ms. Thomson's numbers are within half of what it would subways in Toronto cost or a toll might generate, I wouldn't be so hard on her for being naive. Proposing tolls that won't work just hurts any chance a legitimate proposal would have of working.
I didn't vote for Miller as he didn't have any numbers. I won't vote for any current candidate if they don't have realistic numbers come October. I don't hold it against a politician to say "I was wrong, a better estimate of what it would cost for A is Y." I do hold it agianst a politician when they say "I'll take X dollars raised from A to pay for B. I'll spend Y dollars on B."
I didn't vote for Miller as he didn't have any numbers. I won't vote for any current candidate if they don't have realistic numbers come October. I don't hold it against a politician to say "I was wrong, a better estimate of what it would cost for A is Y." I do hold it agianst a politician when they say "I'll take X dollars raised from A to pay for B. I'll spend Y dollars on B."
Yes, because Rob Ford isn't a career politician...
No, he just purposely understated the cost until he was elected, THEN he jacked it up. That's so much more honest than being up front and telling people what it would actually cost...
Thompson's numbers may be off by 10% or so, but that's nothing compared to the near 50% rise in the cost of the Eglinton LRT.
If your household income is under $70,000/year (or somewhere around there), the HST actually saves you money, because it is offset by income tax rebates. If you make over $70,000/year, chances are your wallet won't really feel any lighter paying an extra 20¢ for a haircut.
nfitz
Superstar
The assumption in the previous election by both sides, seemed to be that the province was going to have to foot the bill. And they have more dramatically than we've seen in decades!
In this election, the candidates started from the City paying as well - and also trying to pick the right routes, rather than leaving it to the experts. This is where it get's interesting, and where we get all sorts of daft suggestions ... like an extension where there is only a peak-hour demand of 1,000 people per hour!
nfitz
Superstar
I'm not sure I recall him ever giving us a cost; just that LRT was cheaper than subway. Do you have an example?
nfitz
Superstar
And that's in 2012 ... the $1,000 payment per family will more than make up the difference in the meantime ... unless you earning $200,000 or something a year ... in which case I feel for you.
The opposition to it is a very partisan "I hate everything the opposition is doing just because they're the opposition, regardless of if it's actually a good thing or not". It's a very Fox News approach to dealing with issues. I sincerely hope Canada's political climate never becomes as poisonously partisan as the US.
He may not have given a cost during the election, you are correct. In that case, it's even worse. When City Council first approved Transit City, its pricetag was $8 billion. Before a single shovel had hit the ground, the cost of the project had nearly doubled.
So I ask you again, which is worse: a candidate being off by ~10%, or a TMP being off by nearly 50%? I find it funny that many people on here are so critical of Thomson's numbers, yet do not even think twice (and in some cases even defend) the staggering increase in cost that occurred with TC, before a single shovel even hit the ground. To me, that is hypocracy at its finest. Nit pick over the pot holes when there's a giant sinkhole right beside them.