[Albertasaurus]

I forgot about this. Sounds like the people mover will actually be a diesel shuttle a la UP Express? I'm kind of disappointed.

I took the UP Express in the summer and one good thing about it is the comfort level is comparable to an inter city train rather than a subway/LRT/commuter train, including very comfortable seats and bathrooms.

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

I think across files they're realizing that just doing stuff is pretty hard unless you have a budget to match your ambition. If your general response to costs that don't match 2004 expectations is 'more study will find a better option/reduce risk', you end up in the same trap as the city did with the greenline in the first place.

There's a notable difference between societies that flap their gums, and societies that actually build things.

Contrast the academic backgrounds of the leadership of the only country currently getting shit done with our municipal/provincial/federal leaders. Grim stuff.

Provincial claims that an elevated line saves money are simplistic and probably incorrect when taking into account projected loss of property values. Why isn't there a more holistic analysis of value?

One is a fairly established claim, backed by countless construction projects built all over the world.

The other is kvetching from a bunch of wannabe Trumps who are looking to get their palms greased for imagined losses, while ignoring the potential benefits of having thousands of people brought to their building's doorsteps every day.

Talk about a holistic attitude!

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

I like the idea of simplifying the network for interoperability. It makes it more realistic to me to have a rolling stock that can be used for Regional and Airport. It also leaves the door open to using High-Speed between Edmonton and Calgary and on to Banff (if you need to do your own right-of-way might as well build it right). I would be fine to also have the same rail type and rolling stock operate Calgary to Banff, since it could do a milk run. It just isn't as exciting.

Using the tunnel for the LRT link and the HSR ROW makes some sense, a greenfield route that went east from YYC past stoney, then north would be a more direct route to red deer, possibly a lot less interference than following the old rail ROW too.

The connector may start off diesel, but I'd expect it to get greener as the rest of the system gets established.

 

[darwink]

Provincial claims that an elevated line saves money are simplistic and probably incorrect when taking into account projected loss of property values. Why isn't there a more holistic analysis of value?

Projected loss of property value is not a revenue loss to government. Also likely wrong.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

not a revenue loss to government.

Right, that's now how property taxes work. Other properties in the category will just pickup what was lost.

 

[lemongrab]

Provincial claims that an elevated line saves money are simplistic and probably incorrect when taking into account projected loss of property values. Why isn't there a more holistic analysis of value?

A tweet from Councillor Walcott long ago pegged that property value loss at $200M; and considering the point he was trying to make we can probably take that as the absolute high end.

Proving this loss and getting compensated for it is a whole other matter. I'm sure the finances would be complicated, but I'd love to see the city be aggressive here and fund a CMLC division for commercial property management+acquisitions+sales. Make fair offers on these properties that kill any argument of loss if refused. If accepted, we can manage the properties until it makes sense to resell them. Decent chance of turning a profit, but even if it doesn't, there is a lot of value in having control where/when its needed.

I'm sure that opens a big can of worms, but I say let them/us eat worms.

 

[kora]

It's not only profit-seeking property owners who want an underground line.

Even if it ends up being more expensive overall, as forumers have explained, there are other benefits. There is no inner city elevated line that improves a downtown streetscape that I have experienced. The parts of New York and Chicago with this arrangement are incredibly unpleasant places to be for noise, shadowing/lack of sunshine, and loss of public space due to columns in sidewalks. The Green Line will go through the heart of the commercial core, cutting it in half.

 

[trtcttc]

I took the UP Express in the summer and one good thing about it is the comfort level is comparable to an inter city train rather than a subway/LRT/commuter train, including very comfortable seats and bathrooms.

That's important for long distance travel. UP Express was designed to be a business travel option, which ended up significantly underperforming ridership projections and is losing lots of money every year. If it is just a connector from Blue line to the airport, something like an airport people mover (like the one between T1 and T3 in YYZ, or the old TTC line 3) is more likely rather than a full scale train like the UP Express.

A tweet from Councillor Walcott long ago pegged that property value loss at $200M; and considering the point he was trying to make we can probably take that as the absolute high end.

Proving this loss and getting compensated for it is a whole other matter. I'm sure the finances would be complicated, but I'd love to see the city be aggressive here and fund a CMLC division for commercial property management+acquisitions+sales. Make fair offers on these properties that kill any argument of loss if refused. If accepted, we can manage the properties until it makes sense to resell them. Decent chance of turning a profit, but even if it doesn't, there is a lot of value in having control where/when its needed.

I'm sure that opens a big can of worms, but I say let them/us eat worms.

The city should only be buying property if it is a completely arms length organization aimed solely at profit generation, and not be responsible for city building or anything else. I find the property value argument pretty unreasonable, and councilors should probably stop putting figure to things so it doesn't get used to dispute assessments. Property value rise and fall for a variety of reasons. Do we mark up values on Stephen Avenue because of the redesign? If not, not sure what the argument is to reduce values for a Green line.

 

[Albertasaurus]

That's important for long distance travel. UP Express was designed to be a business travel option, which ended up significantly underperforming ridership projections and is losing lots of money every year. If it is just a connector from Blue line to the airport, something like an airport people mover (like the one between T1 and T3 in YYZ, or the old TTC line 3) is more likely rather than a full scale train like the UP Express.

My experience aligns with the "underperforming" - while I was personally very impressed with the service, both times I took it the trains were nearly empty. It's a great deal for solo travellers, but if you get a family of 3 or more it's probably cheaper to take a taxi.

 

[trtcttc]

My experience aligns with the "underperforming" - while I was personally very impressed with the service, both times I took it the trains were nearly empty. It's a great deal for solo travellers, but if you get a family of 3 or more it's probably cheaper to take a taxi.

To make money, it was initially meant to cost $25 per person, which isn't that different from some other airport direct services like HKG, but I think there wasn't enough business travellers in Toronto so they had to reduce the rate.

 

[badc0ffee]

My experience aligns with the "underperforming" - while I was personally very impressed with the service, both times I took it the trains were nearly empty. It's a great deal for solo travellers, but if you get a family of 3 or more it's probably cheaper to take a taxi.

This was my experience 8 years ago, but when I used it this summer, passengers had to scramble to get seats.

I agree that the cost is not competitive for a large family, but you can't beat 25 minutes if you're travelling by cab. It might take 25 minutes of gridlock just to get from the Gardiner to Union at certain times of day.

 

[trtcttc]

This was my experience 8 years ago, but when I used it this summer, passengers had to scramble to get seats.

I agree that the cost is not competitive for a large family, but you can't beat 25 minutes if you're travelling by cab. It might take 25 minutes of gridlock just to get from the Gardiner to Union at certain times of day.

You probably took it around rush hour.Many people commuting to the Weston area takes the train because it doesn't cost much more than GO and is much faster.

 

[outoftheice]

Funny how Farkas and Davison both voted against the Green Line as Councillors but can now talk about how they support it without any accountability to their past actions.

Calgary mayoral candidates weigh in on Green Line downtown alignment - Calgary | Globalnews.ca

Alberta's transportation minister maintains the Green Line LRT will be elevated through the downtown core, despite that section of the project still subject to a study.

globalnews.ca

 

[UrbanWarrior]

Yeah every time I've taken the UP Express (couple dozen??) it's been surprisingly empty. Always more than enough seats. Fantastic service to have.