ProjectEnd
Superstar
Do you genuinely think it's appropriate that the most used railroad tracks in Canada are wood?
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- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
Urban Sky
Senior Member
You are asking an entirely different question now: You wrote „holy hell, we're still nailing steel to creosote in 2025. It's bonkers“, as if laying wooden sleepers was a completely archaic and hopelessly outdated practice nowadays. I‘m just pointing out that wooden sleepers are still pretty much a thing even in parts of the industry which are considered much more advanced and sophisticated than us and that wooden sleepers might even have applications where they are objectively better than other types…
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ProjectEnd
Superstar
nfitz
Superstar
crs1026
Superstar
Concrete vs wood is a spreadsheet exercise, not an enabler to better performance......but even if concrete wins, rushing to replace wood ties that aren't end of life would be a massive waste of capital. It's analogous to metric vs imperial - metric has many advantages, but a car driven in imperial goes just as fast, so in the short term it's fine to get you someplace..
Reportedly, ML is importing some super-size track machinery similar to foreign practice that they hope will greatly improve production for track work. Their biggest problem is productivity, not materials. Some of this is the result of short work windows, some is the result of a labyrinthe bureaucracy and use of many layers of contractors who have technical and experience deficiencies, and some is the result of importing "experts" from too many jurisdictions who try to impose (potentially promising) best-practice solutions from elsewhere with insufficient change management and integration.... instead of benefitting from others' learnings, the result is chaos in the field.
As to network building.... the Ontario Line is an interesting case study in how fast things can move once the will is there.(Too soon to see if it's being built well.... but the fast pace is sure a refreshing change) Clearly, GO Expansion has been approached as a hobby farm that can be tinkered with without focussing on getting anything done expeditiously. All QP really wants from GO Expansion is a reliable and abundant source of pressers and photo ops. Discipline in project planning and execution and high performance work control don't seem to matter at the top.
- Paul
Reportedly, ML is importing some super-size track machinery similar to foreign practice that they hope will greatly improve production for track work. Their biggest problem is productivity, not materials. Some of this is the result of short work windows, some is the result of a labyrinthe bureaucracy and use of many layers of contractors who have technical and experience deficiencies, and some is the result of importing "experts" from too many jurisdictions who try to impose (potentially promising) best-practice solutions from elsewhere with insufficient change management and integration.... instead of benefitting from others' learnings, the result is chaos in the field.
As to network building.... the Ontario Line is an interesting case study in how fast things can move once the will is there.(Too soon to see if it's being built well.... but the fast pace is sure a refreshing change) Clearly, GO Expansion has been approached as a hobby farm that can be tinkered with without focussing on getting anything done expeditiously. All QP really wants from GO Expansion is a reliable and abundant source of pressers and photo ops. Discipline in project planning and execution and high performance work control don't seem to matter at the top.
- Paul
micheal_can
Senior Member
Lets fora second ignore the rest of Canada's railways.Should our new and future HSR lines be wood or concrete ties?
smallspy
Senior Member
As a whole, sure. But if you're trying to somehow equate that concrete ties are superior simply because they're concrete then let me stop you there, because you're wrong.
And yet, there are hundreds of thousands of miles of track installed on wooden ties worldwide with no problems. And with no impetus to replace them. Maybe there's a reason for that?
And maybe those statements deserved to be laughed at. Or ignored, as in most cases they should be.
Except that you're trying do draw a parallel where one doesn't exist.
In your mind, concrete ties equals progress. To the vast majority of the railroads, that just isn't the case.
Dan
smallspy
Senior Member
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Can we please move any further discussion of railway sleepers to the „General Railway discussions“ thread, as it doesn’t have any particular relevance for ALTO?
urbantoronto.ca
General railway discussions
The discussion re Horizons on railroad.net mentions coach steps a number of times as being subject to un-remediated corrosion. Is it possible these are steel construction? In any case, we see once again the consequences of “lean” practices colliding with insufficient industrial and capital...
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crs1026
Superstar
^To get a little closer to the original point, things that would make me more confident that the project is viable would be
- evidence that route planning is not unduly influenced by politics
- evidence that consultation is scaled appropriately and not used to gain leverage or blend in unrelated agendas
- evidence that special interest groups are not impeding that process (or creating delay eg by forcing negotiation through nuisance litigation)
- evidence of a proper design with appropriate detail in advance of costing and commercial negotiation
- transparency with respect to accountability and standards for contracted parties, with oversight of same within the public line of sight
- rigourous scope control
- transparent project reporting and monitoring
- a clear and definitive service plan and standards both for Alto and for legacy services (which the government has claimed are to be retained after Alto goes into operation)
As it stands, in the absence of much of the above, I happen to agree that the Alto procurement is likely already off the rails and deserving of redirection or ultimate cancellation - an outcome that none of us wants, but may be the only wise decision a new government can make.
Lastly, the most important decision for a new government is not whether to invest in Alto, it's how to equalise and manage the relationship between all tenant passenger operators and the host railways. That policy change does not require a multi year co-development activity - it's a simple legislative change which could be tabled as soon as the new Minister is sworn in. If anyone had the resolve to do so.
- Paul
- evidence that route planning is not unduly influenced by politics
- evidence that consultation is scaled appropriately and not used to gain leverage or blend in unrelated agendas
- evidence that special interest groups are not impeding that process (or creating delay eg by forcing negotiation through nuisance litigation)
- evidence of a proper design with appropriate detail in advance of costing and commercial negotiation
- transparency with respect to accountability and standards for contracted parties, with oversight of same within the public line of sight
- rigourous scope control
- transparent project reporting and monitoring
- a clear and definitive service plan and standards both for Alto and for legacy services (which the government has claimed are to be retained after Alto goes into operation)
As it stands, in the absence of much of the above, I happen to agree that the Alto procurement is likely already off the rails and deserving of redirection or ultimate cancellation - an outcome that none of us wants, but may be the only wise decision a new government can make.
Lastly, the most important decision for a new government is not whether to invest in Alto, it's how to equalise and manage the relationship between all tenant passenger operators and the host railways. That policy change does not require a multi year co-development activity - it's a simple legislative change which could be tabled as soon as the new Minister is sworn in. If anyone had the resolve to do so.
- Paul
guavadelic
Active Member
Small correction but there are some rail people involved on the government side. They recently hired the former chair of ADIF, the manager of Spain's national railway, who was intimately involved in the design and planning of that country's high speed rail network.
there is no strict limit on the project but they're promising Toronto-Montreal in 3 hours, which is HSR speeds.
SFO-YYZ
Active Member
Was recently watching a live stream with Reece Transit on YouTube, and he also talked about the HSR project with the same concerns:
- scope creep
- lack of focus on the core purpose of a transportation project like HSR = getting a large volume of people from A to B at high speed efficiently while keep capital and operating costs to the minimum. Every other goal should be secondary.
- turning transportation and transit projects into a “catch all” magic solution for all of Canada’s economic and social problems (e.g. housing crisis, affordability issues, unemployment issues, social equity, inclusion and diversity issues, indigenous reconciliation issues, the list goes on and on…). Classic example of this is DC’s streetcar line that served 99 economic and political purposes (housing redevelopment, revitalization of neighborhoods, etc.) except forgetting its one and only core purpose of being a fast and convenient mode of transportation that serve its local residents.…
Reece also noted that the above pattern is not just unique to Canadian transit projects but a lot of Anglo-sphere countries like US, UK, Australia, who are all struggling with skyrocketing transit project costs and timelines.
Literally these are some of the most wealthy countries in the world seemingly unable to deliver and build 21st century light and heavy rail projects for our citizens, it’s just mind boggling. While developing countries with much less financial resources are able to get HSR and heavy rail transit projects up and running at a faster pace and a fraction of the cost of what is being quoted in Canada, UK, Australia, and the United States. This is just wild.
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chrisw
Active Member
Well, on Reece's recent Livestream he also talked about the positive legacy of how much investment the Trudeau liberals made towards public transit infrastructure. That so many projects were able to get started and funded.
Linked at 21m30s.
Linked at 21m30s.
generalcanada
Senior Member
A written political promise and a political law passed saying specifically 3 hours are 2 different things
nfitz
Superstar
A law? When has any country passed such a law?
And why would it be a law? It would be a regulation, surely.
But still silly - when has a country had such a regulation - other than as a maximum speed.