[salsa]

Did he say he supported Eglinton Connects before?

I've been flip flopping between supporting Chow and Tory for the past week. Every time Tory opens his mouth I flop back to supporting Chow. I live near Eglinton, so this project is important to me. His non support of it may push me towards Chow.

His non-support is stated prominently on his website. It's one of the five pillars of his fighting gridlock initiative, in which he also thinks water taxies are a solution to our congestion and "growing carbon footprint". His non-support was the first thing that turned me against him. However with Tory you never know how his position will change (like with many things he used to support this in the past). But I vote based on the candidate's platform. Between this and the DumbTrack thingy in the west end, his vision for Eglinton is to turn it into shit.

Hope this makes your choice a little easier.

 

[nohostages]

When the right-wing got control of most of the media other than the Toronto Star and the CBC.

I guess that explains it then. My parents have had a Star subscription since before I was born. I learned to read from the Beatles White album lyric sheet and the Saturday star comics. As an adult I read it still but I confess to enjoying the sun's crossword much more. Its a strange paradox that they have the toughest puzzle and the easiestnreading level. Good thing for me. I never have to pay for a sun. Those readers always leave the puzzle undone when they leave their paper behind.

 

[nohostages]

Actually I find social democrat or even socialist (with the latter being further on the left) far more accurate a term.

re: Ford and "strong mayor system"

If he haven't noticed, the voters are going to be firing him and his lot soon - guess the system is accountable afterall.

AoD

Denmark is the happiest country on earth. They consider themselves a social democracy.

 

[kEiThZ]

Doug Ford doesn't want to be Mayor, Doug Ford wants to be Dictator.

It's unfortunate that the Ford's have all but curtailed any possible discussion on governance with their incompetence.

There's a lot to be said for a strong mayor system (works well in New York). Though I'm not so sure about a veto. Failing a strong mayor system, one might even consider allowing political parties so that the mayor could caucus with his party and end up with a parliamentarian system.

The current system isn't the best. It does need reform. Sadly, we can't even discuss systems like the strong mayor system without people having instant allergic reactions to the idea of further empowering the mayoralty, thanks to the Fords.

 

[kEiThZ]

Leftist, rightist....doesn't matter. Ideologically rigid people are a menace.

Either extreme is...how do they say?....same sh*t, different pile. Any sort of extremist is a danger to society, regardless of how meek they may be. This is why populist politicians are a joke. Andrea Horwath and Tim Hudak...they were both rightfully relegated to the political dustbin. Same will happen to the Ford-Chow show.

Same page. I've never really felt strong appeal for candidates who veer away from the centre.

But here we now face attempts to redefine the centrist candidate as a right-wing extremist. And therein lies the dispute.

 

[kEiThZ]

Reporter asks John Tory what his engineering studies are that was conducted on smart track. Tory again referred to U of T prof Miller of how he graded his idea an A. This is not an engineering study regardless of how Miller is a civil engineer prof.

Are we going to require every candidate who proposes an idea to spend millions on engineering studies before running for office? It's a serious question. This is a rather serious burden to put on a candidate.

John Tory is getting slagged for something even his opponents have not done. Sure, Ford and Chow both support the DRL. By the standard expected of Tory, one would expect both those candidates to have details on their preferred DRL alignment, including cost.

I'm sort of glad the public is more tolerant about ideas without demanding CMA/PMP level financial forecasting.

 

[hper]

Denmark is the happiest country on earth. They consider themselves a social democracy.

Bit, but, but, it's a "Northern European Welfare State In The Worst Sense Of The Term", folks.

Copenhagen mayn''t be the best example (Prefer Rotterdam or even what Glasgow's becoming), but it's pretty damn fine. The point being the close-cut and thrust of modern, global cities are exactly the places where new forms of governance and social adaptation have to be visioned. mustered. and implemented. Toronto could get there, but there isn't a single candidate in the current farce willing to step up to that challenge. Olivia Chow's heart is maybe there, but she's simply not up to it. Tory hasn't the gumption or, frankly, the intellect to get to it. And, then there's that blowhard guy...what's his name? Already forgotten.

This whole election cycle is a terrible disappointment. Largely because important urban ideas and issues have been completely subsumed by the grotesqueries of the past four years. Now all we wanna do is get out from under the Fordsmog and move in some *vaguely positive direction*. There isn't a single candidate worth voting for. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

 

[polluted]

Are we going to require every candidate who proposes an idea to spend millions on engineering studies before running for office? It's a serious question. This is a rather serious burden to put on a candidate.

John Tory is getting slagged for something even his opponents have not done. Sure, Ford and Chow both support the DRL. By the standard expected of Tory, one would expect both those candidates to have details on their preferred DRL alignment, including cost.

I'm sort of glad the public is more tolerant about ideas without demanding CMA/PMP level financial forecasting.

I've noticed a lot of Chow supporters are being, how do you say, disingenuous.

I think it's one of the steps towards acceptance.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Same page. I've never really felt strong appeal for candidates who veer away from the centre.

But here we now face attempts to redefine the centrist candidate as a right-wing extremist. And therein lies the dispute.

Yes, this.
I guess it's easy to blame the Fords for sending the whole damn city off-kilter.
I have a friend or two who are die-hard Olivia folks and a friend or two who wouldn't vote for her with guns to their heads.

IMHO, what I've seen in this campaign is the former group just losing all perspective. Tory is a classic 'Progressive Conservative,' much closer to Bill Davis than Rob Ford (who, I'll betcha, couldn't even tell you who Davis was). Fine, he's not Barbara Hall or John Sewell but people like Linda McQuaid are painting him as an extremist and is utterly untrue and easily disproven.

I feel bad saying Chow supporters are acting like Ford Nation, irrational and unreachable, but that's what I've been seeing.

The point of an election if to have people choose between competing visions of the city , putting Doug's "uniqueness" aside, that's what we're getting. I think Chow and Ford aren't nearly as far apart as her supporters would like to think but, yes, he is more 'conservative' and she is more 'progressive.' For a combination of reasons people are opting (it seems) for the 'conservative' candidate but ath doesn't mean they're opting more Fordesque policies. I think the city needs higher taxes, better transit planning etc. but Chow hasn't grabbed that bull by the horns, so this is what she gets by trying to play their game.

The main thing, after getting rid of the Fords, is bridging some of the social wedges they have driven in the city. I may be naive but I think Tory is capable of doing it. I hope that Chow Nation won't be sore losers, obstructionists who prevent us from finally moving forward.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Sadly, my facebook feed is still full of Chow Nation irrational fear-mongering based on misrepresentations and lies.

Which just furthers my point about extremists. The dimmer they are, the louder they are, the more disingenuous they are, the more dangerous they are.

Dishonesty and illusion are their trademarks.

 

[adma]

The main thing, after getting rid of the Fords, is bridging some of the social wedges they have driven in the city. I may be naive but I think Tory is capable of doing it. I hope that Chow Nation won't be sore losers, obstructionists who prevent us from finally moving forward.

Yet...beneath it all, when all is said and done, you might as well factor Ford out: the Tory vs Chow thing is a return to old days of straight left vs right. Even their relative shares in the end might not be too much different from, say, Rowlands vs Layton in 1991. And Chow Nation will be no more or less sore-loserish than their equivalent was in the days of Eggleton and Rowlands.

Things are getting back to normal, folks.

(And even when it comes to "strategic voting": hey, one can argue that it even happens in more orthodoxly 2-way races like Layton vs Rowlands. So rather than voting x to stop y, or reluctantly gathering under the frontrunning y tent in order to stop z, it's a matter of soft voters who had flirted with x before deciding to hop on the frontrunning y bandwagon: "go with a winner, not a loser".)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Tory on Ford's Council record:

[video=youtube;LvcZ_4bdFx4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvcZ_4bdFx4[/video]

The man is a great speaker.

 

[adma]

Sadly, my facebook feed is still full of Chow Nation irrational fear-mongering based on misrepresentations and lies.

Which just furthers my point about extremists. The dimmer they are, the louder they are, the more disingenuous they are, the more dangerous they are.

Dishonesty and illusion are their trademarks.

Yet by the sound of things, you never really were on the radar of so-called Chow Nation, even when they were leading.

And re

No, really, just the thought of it is the stuff of nightmare. Maybe I'm especially sensitive, being the son of immigrants who escaped an autocratic regime in central Europe. The fear of tyrants goes deep with us.

Well, in a way, so am I, being of Polish background and having been to the Communist-era "old country" several times. Yet I have an odd, conciliatory "Ostalgic" soft spot for the stuff from that era--and feel that those who want to wipe out Cold War-era Polish monuments for being "communistic" are as idiotic as those who want to blow up Boston City Hall or remove Nathan Phillips Square's "eyesore" walkways. So there.

 

[salsa]

Tory on Ford's Council record:

[video=youtube;LvcZ_4bdFx4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvcZ_4bdFx4[/video]

The man is a great speaker.

I'd like to see that said in a debate.

 

[adma]

The advance voting is curious. Don't think it's indicative of a final outcome though.

Ford Nation probably out in force to protect their guy. You know they sense the sentiment of change. Anti-Ford also out in force to oust him. And v then there's the Chow-Tory fight driving their individual supporters to the polls.

Actually, I'm not so sure that Ford Nation is out in ballot-box force--in fact, they seem too wrapped up in their own overconfidence to concretely sense any sentiment of change...